tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post3493389068752618161..comments2024-03-26T03:31:06.199-04:00Comments on Ask a Korean!: T.K. (Ask a Korean!)http://www.blogger.com/profile/07663422474464557214noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-56297696190319750792009-10-21T17:40:20.772-04:002009-10-21T17:40:20.772-04:00*cut off as usual for being a verbose bore*
The K...*cut off as usual for being a verbose bore*<br /><br />The Korean wrote:<br /><br />"The Korean finds that "creative thinking" is one of the most overrated objectives in education. Vast majority of people end up in a job that requires no creative thinking at all....<br /><br />"The Korean is also a huge fan of corporal punishment—of course, to the extent it is used judiciously. It is an extremely effective motivator, and very quickly creates a better learning environment for those students who are there to learn."<br /><br />I agree wholeheartedly with both points. This is why I cringe at reflexive, America-oriented criticism of the rote memorization system that Korean K-12 school encourages. In particular, such a system was the only possible alternative when Korea was in the catch-up mode in its modernization drive under Park and Chun, where the emphasis ought to have been placed on creating a competent workforce, not sui generis innovators. So much of the criticism of the Korean education system has been missing the context—which, to paraphrase Burke, is king.<br /><br />I will decline to elaborate the corporal punishment point, except to assert that we need more of it rather than less!Won Joon Choehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09616918987942651496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-71568734390587385912009-10-21T17:39:55.664-04:002009-10-21T17:39:55.664-04:00Let me belatedly respond to some points made both ...Let me belatedly respond to some points made both in the original entry and the comment section, albeit in a provisional and brief manner, given that the Korean has promised a fuller analysis in the near-future. I also apologize for being so disjointed in my response; I lack the time and energy to actually craft a coherent, comprehensive response. Finally, In the interest of full background disclosure: I would say that I present a similar background profile as the Korean, having immigrated in my teens.<br /><br />Sonagi said:<br /><br />"I recall reading recently that there was a high correlation between socioeconomic status and educational attainment in the US but not in Korea."<br /><br />This is accurate, and I would attribute the difference in no small part to cultural differences. Of course, I recognize that "culture" is almost a dirty word when it is used to explain social phenomena, because it lacks the precision of the quasi-mathematical methods that the social sciences (and their devotees) prefer. Nonetheless, without resort to cultural factors such as Confucianism and its legacy of the literati rule and trans-generational understanding of the self, it becomes difficult to grasp the unusual, unique obsession with education in the Far East, as well as the length to which East Asian parents sacrifice themselves to ensure that their children obtain a good one. This is also why I am skeptical of the proposals to transplant Korea’s K-12 practices onto the U.S. <br /><br />Obviously culture is a big, controversial topic that I do not want to elaborate here, but let me at least present the disclaimer that I am not a cultural determinist the way some advocates of "Asian values" such as Lee Kuan Yew and Mahathir may be. In the long-run, modernity may be the universal culture, and you are already seeing many cracked facets of the East Asian cultural edifice.<br /><br />Adiabatic said:<br /><br />"As far as I can tell, the problem is parents not valuing working hard in school and pressuring their children—hard—to do likewise, not the "creaky" education system. However, I don’t have any grand sweeping policy prescriptions to force people to care about their children's education....<br /><br />"Additionally, you can lecture to an intentional nonlearner all day, but that doesn't mean you can make him give a rat's—ahem, engage with the subject material, unless there's sufficient support at home."<br /><br />My view exactly, and again there are intractable social and cultural forces at work here that won't be resolved by merely adding more man-hours to the system.<br /><br />Sean said:<br /><br />"I also disagree with The Korean about adequate funding. Average spend/student in the U.S. is extremely high compared to Korea –even in "extremely poor" districts like Chicago or Washington, D.C."<br /><br />Yes, I recall reading Jonathan Kozol's Savage Inequalities as a high schooler upon a Leftist friends (who wanted to persuade me of the simplistic formula that more money means better education), and I found the supposedly horrid conditions described within that book no worse than what I found in Bang-bae elementary school (not exactly a poor part of Seoul) aeons ago in many cases. Its not the physical infrastructure that matters most, but the cultural environment. Besides, what puts Korean pre-college students on top is what they do (or are forced to do) outside the classroom, such as extra homework and supplementary private education.Won Joon Choehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09616918987942651496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-1200266782535802822009-10-14T02:08:25.661-04:002009-10-14T02:08:25.661-04:00I am very familiar with the HS and neighborhood th...I am very familiar with the HS and neighborhood that The Korean went to and lived in. The Korean's neighborhood's median household income is $77k, so that's upper middle class.<br /><br />The Korean's HS is indeed soft and has no athletics to speak of... ;)Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18161497068139772587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-30111578899899804572009-10-13T06:32:51.989-04:002009-10-13T06:32:51.989-04:00No creative thinking is needed for a vast majority...No creative thinking is needed for a vast majority of jobs? I'm not talking about making art or writing poetry, creative thinking is simply finding better ways to solve problems. In every job, you solve problems. I can't think of a job that I've had where I haven't had to think creatively to solve a problem, especially when there is no right or wrong answer. The problem I find with working with outsourced workers in India or China is that in general, anytime I, or my company, tries to do anything non-standard, they literally can't do it. This is why, in general, the US and other "Western" countries are great at inventing things, then outsource the production work to countries where the citizens are really good at doing the same thing over and over. There's a reason why not a lot of, say, product development is sent to India.<br /><br />And corporal punishment is a terrible way to discipline anyone. There are plenty of ways to effectively motivate and discipline anyone. Corporal punishment is the lazy way to do it.Kyle Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07783963171110291340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-75144185508963246672009-10-13T05:05:23.523-04:002009-10-13T05:05:23.523-04:00I do agree with you that the worst-case outcome of...I do agree with you that the worst-case outcome of the Korean educational system is much better than the worst-case outcome of the American educational system. The American system for K-8 ought to be much more like the ones in Asian countries- every student needs to overlearn basic skills.<br /><br />However, studying for 17 hours a day is excessive. Korean students don't study 90 hours a week to acquire useful knowledge; they do it to beat other students for a handful of highly-coveted university slots. In the US, if you want to go to Harvard, you DON'T study 17 hours a day- you do community service, play a sport or an instrument, and participate in clubs and community groups. I did get into Harvard (although I didn't go), and in high school I spent far more time per week on clubs, service, and instrument practice than on homework. (In fact, school and these activities together probably took up something like 80-90hours a week, same as you!) The fact that I had several 5s on AP tests and tested as one of the nation's best chemistry students almost certainly helped. But Harvard wouldn't have taken a second look at me if I only had the academics. If you want American high school students to study like you did, go take it up with Harvard and the Ivy League.<br /><br />Incidentally, those extracurricular activities probably helped my personal development along more than studying would have. In some respects, they were certainly more enlightening. <br /><br />By the way, does everybody in Korea study 17 hours a day? Do plumbers and electricians? There is a postdoc in my lab who is extremely talented. He's won several awards and fellowships; he is developing a stem cell technology that can potentially rejuvenate the brain and cure conditions like epilepsy and amblyopia. But he's 32 and making NIH minimum- $42K. That's after 4 years of undergrad, where he was making almost nothing; 4 years of grad school, where he was making $25-30K; and 6 years of a postdoc making around $40K. He is seeking professorship jobs, where he would make $60K. He loves the science but hates the fact that he can't support his family ($42K doesn't go far in San Francisco.) Financially, he would have been better off learning a trade straight out of high school! Everyone needs to know how to read, do math through algebra, and know basic facts about history, civics, and science. That all can be accomplished before high school. Everything else is gravy, and not necessarily the kind that's good for you.Wandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02920116687183692937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-11188797700905014722009-10-12T18:53:12.968-04:002009-10-12T18:53:12.968-04:00While I do agree that K-12 in Korea is far more ac...While I do agree that K-12 in Korea is far more academically rigorous that the States, I don't think it produces a "smarter" individual by the time they graduate college.<br /><br />I had cousins in Korea that studied 16 hours a day in high school, and yet when they got into college all studying seemed to have stopped.<br /><br />I was, to put it politely, not a motivated high school student and got into college almost purely on my SAT scores. But I did study my ass off in college. I think what the US lacks in K-12 we more than make up in the university system.Digiratihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10796598504893896043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-36423309564842113292009-10-12T17:02:15.583-04:002009-10-12T17:02:15.583-04:00What's educashun, and why is everyone talking ...What's educashun, and why is everyone talking about them?I am, therefore I think.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03036468014467526897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-28845715025859099902009-10-12T15:57:47.007-04:002009-10-12T15:57:47.007-04:00umm sorry about spacing, bad habitumm sorry about spacing, bad habitPhiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01302325440544095326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-11307394067525049522009-10-12T15:53:31.570-04:002009-10-12T15:53:31.570-04:00I have not experienced the US system so I cannot c...I have not experienced the US system so I cannot comment on it, but as for the Korean system, here are my thoughts. Because classes are generally atrociously boring, facts have to be beaten in the hard way. But here's the thing, at the end of the day, it isn't the facts that matter, it's the discipline. That's why Americans invent things and Koreans perfect them. <br />I wish both systems would tone down the standardized testing and do a better job at teaching the students how to respect themselves and about relating with other people. I.e. maybe that blasting soju or hot dogs really isn't meant to be a competition, and that learning a few things about other people might prevent you from wanting to invade their country .. or your own country.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-78667264504185047292009-10-12T15:52:55.679-04:002009-10-12T15:52:55.679-04:00Thank you.err.showing me a statistics would be muc...Thank you.err.showing me a statistics would be much more convincing,though.Phiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01302325440544095326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-44666573945224720452009-10-12T14:59:22.412-04:002009-10-12T14:59:22.412-04:00This is the last comment I leave in this thread.
T...This is the last comment I leave in this thread.<br />To THE Korean:<br />It was not insulting. Let's leave it there.<br />I think that your perspective on EDUCATION (in capital letters) is misguided and misguiding. <br />The shorcomings of American education do not correspond to the success of Korean test takers in world math competitions. Pointing at the problems of American education is not a fruitful debate or even a debate.<br />Korea has a system that needs reform. America has another system that also needs reforms. So far, in absolute numbers (2 more last night in Economics), US is winning huge. If Korea had won a few more Nobel prices and a fewer high school math competitions we would not be talking about this now.<br />And, with all my respects, Jose out!José Maríahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08320975330003706513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-46984918799807872932009-10-12T14:43:45.178-04:002009-10-12T14:43:45.178-04:00Jose Maria,
The Korean believes that you did not ...Jose Maria,<br /><br />The Korean believes that you did not intend to insult. But what you wrote cannot be read as anything else -- watch out for it in the future.<br /><br />If the Korean understood correctly, your point is that the Korean would not have been writing like had he stayed in Korea, because Korean students don't learn how to write essays, etc. That is absolutely untrue -- the Korean was a vigorous writer throughout his childhood, and his 17-hour school day did not stop him from writing as much as he did.<br /><br />Fi,<br /><br />On the contrary, blogs like this are everywhere in Korea. See, for example, <a href="www.journalog.net" rel="nofollow">here</a>, for a particularly well-written set of blogs. Doesn't that show that you can be plenty creative under Korean educational system?The Koreanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04328000772620833495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-57165453652326741832009-10-12T14:34:15.431-04:002009-10-12T14:34:15.431-04:00Fi, seriously. Put a space after each period, comm...Fi, seriously. Put a space after each period, comma, parentheses and the like.The Koreanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04328000772620833495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-19925841695012478892009-10-12T14:30:30.129-04:002009-10-12T14:30:30.129-04:00Oh and creative thinking it's not something to...Oh and creative thinking it's not something to use during work.You need it,when you form your opinion and take part in discussions.(Some thinks,that makes you a citizen,and that's how democracy evolve and survive.)None of us would be on this blog without it.As far as I know,it's rare to write a blog like this in example Korea.Phiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01302325440544095326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-20514338189471461012009-10-12T14:20:56.621-04:002009-10-12T14:20:56.621-04:00Sorry about the spacing,I will try to take much ca...Sorry about the spacing,I will try to take much care of it.And I don't agree.My Korean friends are just as same afraid from hard work,and giving up on things,they don't like(e.g.learning English)as anybody else I know.Just they have much worse memories from school.I guess your thoughts on that somehow too idealistic.Phiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01302325440544095326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-66381765971238206362009-10-12T11:02:18.493-04:002009-10-12T11:02:18.493-04:00What I said was: "As usual, The Korean is mis...What I said was: "As usual, The Korean is missing the point talking about general things like EDUCATION". It was not intended to mean that The Korean usually misses the point, so don't feel insulted; it was not my intention.<br />Koreans are well trained from elementary to high school. As it has been said, are trained to score high in Korean made tests (in TOEFL or TOEIC -English- or DELE -Spanish- they perform poorly.) The reason, I believe, they are TRAINED to answer test questions, not to write or criticize an essay. Probably no one is at sixteen. The problem with the Korean education, I believe, is that the training almost stops at high school and it is not replaced by critical thinking. <br />Summing up: it is possible that a sixteen year old Korean student perform greatly in near automatic tasks (math questions, for example, which requires simple processing and good memory), but he or she won't perform so greatly in other tasks needing more critical thought.<br />This is, of course, my personal opinion. I hope no one feels insulted this time.José Maríahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08320975330003706513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-19945851286730510722009-10-12T10:39:39.937-04:002009-10-12T10:39:39.937-04:00Sean, generally agreed. Truly self-motivated stude...Sean, generally agreed. Truly self-motivated students with a supportive family and friends have a higher ceiling in the U.S., not the least because they get to go to world's best colleges.<br /><br />Kyle,<br /><br />1. The Korean finds that "creative thinking" is one of the most overrated objectives in education. Vast majority of people end up in a job that requires no creative thinking at all.<br /><br />2. The Korean is also a huge fan of corporal punishment -- of course, to the extent it is used judiciously. It is an extremely effective motivator, and very quickly creates a better learning environment for those students who are there to learn.<br /><br />Jose Maria,<br /><br />To be sure, claiming that the Korean usually misses the point is pretty insulting. The Korean let it slide only because he developed a thick skin.<br /><br />That said, you may be right. The Korean never attended college in Korea, and it is impossible to predict the alternate universe of what may have happened if the Korean did.<br /><br />Cyrillic script,<br /><br />Take it from a person who studied at least 12 hours a day his whole life: your assumption is not safe. <br /><br />Adiabatic,<br /><br />That's when corporal punishment comes in.<br /><br />Fi,<br /><br />The Korean knows English is not your first language, but using the correct spacing would make your insight a LOT easier to read.<br /><br />That said, the Korean thinks American educational system, even when it is functioning like it is supposed to, makes children soft. It makes them afraid of extremely hard work. It makes them prone to giving up on things that they don't like. And when it's NOT functioning correctly, the downside is so much greater than the downside of when Korean educational system is not functioning properly.The Koreanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04328000772620833495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-572098079254300452009-10-12T05:52:17.336-04:002009-10-12T05:52:17.336-04:00OMG...you know,my English teacher thaught me that:...OMG...you know,my English teacher thaught me that:"if a dog comes in a classroom,and it is more interesting for the children,than the teacher,you have to send out the teacher" or something,and I'm always thinking on that,when I'm helping to some Asian friend learning Hungarian,or my 12 year old sister,and what kind of education I want for my future children.<br /><br /><br />Because I think this one sentence covers,what an effective educational system is like.I'm not American though,and I have doubts about being less strict(compared to our educational system)is the best all the time,but Korean educational system is the very last I would wish to my future children.<br /><br />okay,so...those kids learning more,than they will work,when they grow-up.(not in Korea,though)they have bruises on their bodies,caused by teachers.and this is for what?I don't want to generalize,or hurt anybody,but in certain things,their knowledge is just under avarage,compared to Hungarian students.Of course,it is very relative,in some things they are pretty excellent compared to even top Hungarian students(math and classical music example)But they are spending so much time with learning,they must be much more...you know...So I can't imagine,what they are doing in those long study hours.But I don't think,Korean educational system,especially long school days are effective.<br /><br />Come on,there are so much movies about school life in the U.S.,like School of Rock,or the one with Antonio Banderas teaching ballroom dances...they have something to say.Phiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01302325440544095326noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-26571933241160350332009-10-12T04:24:01.540-04:002009-10-12T04:24:01.540-04:00I am requesting that The Korean perhaps can use in...I am requesting that The Korean perhaps can use information from this article for his analysis on the Korean education system. <br /><br />The Chosun Ilbo <a href="http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2009/10/12/2009101200929.html" rel="nofollow">reports today</a> that almost half of Korean students at Ivy league schools drop out. Maybe we can compare that with the dropout standard deviation for all ethnicities at top schools.Fighteenghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16713899971102569585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-7834710963572043262009-10-12T01:32:39.471-04:002009-10-12T01:32:39.471-04:00quoth The Korean:
"2. BUT -- what about thos...quoth The Korean:<br /><br />"2. BUT -- what about those students who are not self-starters? Isn't it better to beat the knowledge into them through long school days?"<br /><br />No, because then they'll be bored silly and will be disruptive in class, and the teacher will have to spend an increasing amount of time on classroom management.<br /><br />Additionally, you can lecture to an intentional nonlearner all day, but that doesn't mean you can make him give a rat's — ahem, engage with the subject material, unless there's sufficient support at home.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01382175759425439195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-62335366149923030072009-10-11T20:15:53.300-04:002009-10-11T20:15:53.300-04:00I had been meaning to ask about the Korean educati...I had been meaning to ask about the Korean educational system for a while. <br /><br />I'm currently an apprentice teacher. Me and my cooperating teacher occasionally complain about the emphasis placed on a social life in high school. <br /><br />We also find ourselves getting behind in the curriculum due to the need to reteach topics that the students were expected to know. A sad realization we're coming to is that high school chemistry seems to be the first class where students are asked to think and apply skills from previous classes and use them in context. This is around their junior or senior year in high school sometimes. I was quite surprised that some students thought studying for 2 hours was a long time. <br /><br />It doesn't help that the American education system holds teachers accountable in the sense that our jobs are on the line if a class of students decides to not study, consequently flunks the state exams. Another thing I try to help is the fact that there are 22 different languages at our school (not offered, but languages that need to be accommodated) <br /><br />My program is currently trying to revolutionize the educational system by taking into account different learning styles and teaching approaches - which I appreciate, but I'm really wondering if there's something bigger being overlooked. <br /><br />I'll look forward to your post on the educational system.Christinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18335663618654266211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-52320643802829569992009-10-11T12:42:26.722-04:002009-10-11T12:42:26.722-04:00My high school valedictorian was this nerdy and sh...My high school valedictorian was this nerdy and shy chinese kid who immigrated to the US at the age of 16 as well. He didn't speak English well or much, but he aced the SAT, 1600 at the time, and went on to MIT. My high school was average and had its share of druggies, punks, thugs and violence. <br /><br />Obviously, he's more of the exception than the norm that Krugman warns us of in his column. <br /><br />I'm looking forward to hearing what The Korean has to say about education in Korea.Fighteenghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16713899971102569585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-35583808696042951402009-10-11T12:26:00.434-04:002009-10-11T12:26:00.434-04:00I doubt anyone needs to study more than 8 hours a ...I doubt anyone needs to study more than 8 hours a day, five days a week.<br /><br />If someone spends more, it would be safe to assume he wastes a good chunk of his time; and also that his achievements are sub-optimal.<br /><br />Education is *not* like violence: if it doesn't work, adding more education won't solve it.Илья Казначеевhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047072519984995214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-12409946891863075652009-10-11T12:20:03.706-04:002009-10-11T12:20:03.706-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Илья Казначеевhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047072519984995214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-28034131793263854722009-10-11T06:27:20.891-04:002009-10-11T06:27:20.891-04:00Someone called me an ass. Maybe he or she is right...Someone called me an ass. Maybe he or she is right, but I did not insult The Korean. <br />My point, missing, was that generalizations about the Korean culture or way of life miss a lot of things because The Korean, as he said, does not live or work here. In big topics like, say EDUCATION, the point is missing.<br />1. There are three levels of education in Korea, the same than in America or Europe: primary, secondary and terciary. <br />2. The primary education in Korea, like in the rest of the world, is base on training future citizens (country songs, symbols, basic values, etc.)<br />3. The secondary education is about basic facts: names, dates, places and basic forms of research: in Korea and any other country.<br />4. The terciary level is the most important because it creates culture. It is based on research.<br /><br />My point was the The Korean acquired that level in the US. In Korea he would have not done it. From the start to the end, to graduate is not a difficult task. It is always up to the individual, of course, but if the system is so permissive, chances are most people are not going to work hard.<br /><br />Greetings from Korea.José Maríahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08320975330003706513noreply@blogger.com