tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post9127763251841104314..comments2024-03-26T03:31:06.199-04:00Comments on Ask a Korean!: Technical Proficiency and CreativityT.K. (Ask a Korean!)http://www.blogger.com/profile/07663422474464557214noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-37509109914048781762011-08-23T23:08:51.313-04:002011-08-23T23:08:51.313-04:00The OP is talking about Mozart, Dr. J and Bill Gat...<i>The OP is talking about Mozart, Dr. J and Bill Gates. You are talking about The Sugar Hill Gang and Lovecraft. SHG and Lovecraft might be minor stars in the creative universes, but ultimately they are forgettable.</i><br /><br />I can dismiss those you consider truly creative just breezily. (Especially Bill Gates.) I'll leave it at that.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02147242353650746675noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-32364205277643576912011-08-22T21:42:20.952-04:002011-08-22T21:42:20.952-04:00I find it funny that Jim includes the band X in hi...I find it funny that Jim includes the band X in his list of "competent but not proficient" musicians. Billy Zoom's father was a big band musician, and Billy was a multi-insturmentalist who could play the piano, accordion, most woodwinds and the violin, among others, in addition to the guitar. He had worked as a studio musician for almost a decade before he hooked up with X. <br /><br />The Sex Pistols also had musicians that were more competent than they let on in their records. Before McLaren got the Pistols together, most of the band did Faces covers and other early rock, and quite well, they say. They made their music sound trashy and "dumbed-down" as part of their gimmick. <br /><br />This, in a back-handed way, is the point the Korean was getting at. One of the key elements to success, especially continued success at a high level, is the ability to repeat your accomplishments. As an extension, one of the key elements to creativity is being able to modify what you're already doing. That requires technical proficiency. <br /><br />Another example of high-level technical training that was not formal would be Thelonious Monk, who never studied music formally but worked continuously with musicians who probably taught him a lot. He was an innovator because he heard things no one else could hear, but he had to have the technical skill to grasp what he was hearing and reproduce it on the piano. <br /><br />A simpler version of this argument can be found in Norton Juster's The Line and the Dot.raincrowleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13168392235033927931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-28054169365676445022011-08-22T21:35:10.193-04:002011-08-22T21:35:10.193-04:00Creativity is about finding new ways that others h...Creativity is about finding new ways that others have not. The higher the skills and knowledge, the more options are presented and therefore a requirement to new solutions.<br /><br />Creativity requires many hours of searching for new solutions, which most of those hours are to waste. It needs total focus and neglecting everything else.<br /><br />So I believe as the Korean that with only common skills and effort it's basically impossible to be truly creative, perhaps only reinventing something old in a new fasion.<br /><br />However, I am a software developer and sometimes people around me comes with some good ideas. Usually it's a reinvention of something, so I would not call it truly creative but its never the less something that I didn't think about and makes me start thinking fresh. So even if I do have the technichal skills, there are still many things I dont know which is required for a great idea.Janhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09227896758631542974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-83888292630977725212011-08-22T19:05:47.027-04:002011-08-22T19:05:47.027-04:00Well, can we just agree that being technically pro...Well, can we just agree that being technically proficient leads to people being more likely to being creative and innovative than people who are not? I don't think it's an absolute pre-requisite but I think the point of this article is to illustrate that creativity is not stifled by technical proficiency, but rather enhanced by it. Certainly that much is evident.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16578143472967736000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-25355906342961423832011-08-22T18:58:16.862-04:002011-08-22T18:58:16.862-04:00I'd like to add, the unique character of Chaga...I'd like to add, the unique character of Chagall's work does come, to a great deal, from simply not being able to "do it better"- hence the bold off-colors instead of refined contrasts and the floating elements (because he isn't good at perspective, he found a way around it to compose an image). <br /><br />This was not a result of creativity through training.allhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11268850410127388691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-5021912148658283802011-08-22T18:43:09.784-04:002011-08-22T18:43:09.784-04:00So along with your argument Jeff Koons or Damien H...So along with your argument Jeff Koons or Damien Hirst are surely not true artists, albeit being the most successful and top selling temporary artists. Both of them can't draw, sculpt or paint, they hire people to do it for them. Well maybe time has yet to prove if their work will remain.. so how about a more classical example: Pierre Bonnard and Marc Chagall, both renowned artists in these days, have very, very poor draftmanship.. they were clearly not talented. Giorgio de Chirico is famous for his beautiful, naive and mysterious body of work that he created in his early twenties- only when he decided to go the strictly academical route in learning how to paint, his work became incredibly dull.. which is how everybody felt about it.. much to his frustration, as he thought he was getting better the harder he tried and practiced his craft. Unfortunately, this was just not the case. <br /><br />I can agree with your stance mostly when applied to classical music, but in the fine arts it isn't so clear to say. Perseverance, individualism and a few skills to market these outweigh talent on the large scale.<br /><br />(I hope I made my point understood, my English doesn't feel so good:)allhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11268850410127388691noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-3524871245539796522011-08-22T16:59:42.087-04:002011-08-22T16:59:42.087-04:00I have to agree a bit with 21tiger.. There are lot...I have to agree a bit with 21tiger.. There are lots of asian parents that force their kids to practice an instrument or art or sport that they simply have no passion for and no matter how technically good they become through the practice, will probably never become very creative or innovative in that endeavor. <br />However, the training and discipline IS useful in that it teaches you the "WAY" to learn when you do find something you are passionate for, you know how much time you have to dedicate in order to become good.<br /><br />The trope about technical skill "crowding out" creativity probably sprung from the fact that because so many Asian kids were "forced" into learning a skill they had no passion for, they ended up being decent technicians and not creative at all, which in turn gave the unfair Asian stereotype of being robotic, uncreative but technically good.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16578143472967736000noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-49336272601687121862011-08-22T16:36:17.801-04:002011-08-22T16:36:17.801-04:00I'm on board with Jim, SHG and Lovecraft might...I'm on board with Jim, SHG and Lovecraft might not be DJ Kool Herc or Shakespeare, in terms the loftiness with which people speak their names, but I would certainly count Lovecraft at least as a tremendously creative and influential writer. Also, the early punk bands that Jim mentioned are hardly unmemorable since they pretty much created a sub-genre of rock and their work continuous to have serious impact in rock music today.<br /><br />Likewise, James Brown, the Godfather of Soul, was known for playing any of the instruments in his band, however, he was the one that came up with the music, sometimes in collaboration with his band, but sometimes he would just direct them in what he wants them to play. He *was* a very technically proficient singer, but would I say that he was a technically proficient composer? I would question that. He had the ideas, but it was up to his bandmates to turn those ideas into actual music. And yet, James Brown, is undeniably an impressively creative musical visionary and many of his biggest songs were clearly his own.<br /><br />I do think there is a correlation and technical proficiency creates means to better express creativity, but I think it's more of a correlation than a requisite and certainly not a causation.refresh_daemonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14461891308315532959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-19416685206023546782011-08-22T12:48:54.623-04:002011-08-22T12:48:54.623-04:00Jim,
Compare what I said with what you said -- yo...<b>Jim</b>,<br /><br />Compare what I said with what you said -- your conclusion is missing the word "true." The OP is talking about Mozart, Dr. J and Bill Gates. You are talking about The Sugar Hill Gang and Lovecraft. SHG and Lovecraft might be minor stars in the creative universes, but ultimately they are forgettable.<br /><br /><b>21tiger</b>,<br /><br /><i>You seem to be suggesting that Asian (and Western) parents want their kids to be innovative, thus they force them to endure thousands of hours of piano lessons or ballet lessons.</i><br /><br />Instead of speculating what I meant to say, you could focus on what I actually wrote.<br /><br /><b>AKA</b><br /><br /><i>Take a look at the street artists - I'd say there are more who have not had technical/formal training in their craft than those who have, but there are some amazing artists out there.</i><br /><br />Technical training does not have to be formal training. It just has to be technical.T.K. (Ask a Korean!)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07663422474464557214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-81433895917045583392011-08-22T11:24:27.793-04:002011-08-22T11:24:27.793-04:00I think that creativity does require technical ski...I think that creativity does require technical skill as a base, which is fueled by passion, interest and some sort of technical understanding of the medium which you are using as a form of expression.Tony C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16660141530413708829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-36795195027327836142011-08-22T07:48:25.456-04:002011-08-22T07:48:25.456-04:00I have to agree with the first two commenters here...I have to agree with the first two commenters here. While I believe one should hone the technical skills of one's chosen field, creativity does not necessarily come with nor require technical skill. Take a look at the street artists - I'd say there are more who have not had technical/formal training in their craft than those who have, but there are some amazing artists out there. I believe creativity comes more with talent than technical proficiency.a K-Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00836902270700521785noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-10779378923169918332011-08-22T00:24:44.957-04:002011-08-22T00:24:44.957-04:00"This is a stupid argument, because it does n..."This is a stupid argument, because it does not recognize the crucial fact that technical excellence is a necessary condition for innovation." <br /><br />That's because Innovation is a word almost always associated with doing something 'first' (eg. getting patents'..something nearly impossible for a novice to 'stumble upon'.<br /><br />"There is no innovator who is not a technician first. And ironically, to build the technical skill required for an exercise in creativity, one must engage in a decidedly droll series of repeated drills and practices."<br /><br />You seem to be suggesting that Asian (and Western) parents want their kids to be innovative, thus they force them to endure thousands of hours of piano lessons or ballet lessons.<br /><br />Of course not. They're trying to build discipline, not innovation. One could argue that no parents care about innovation. Innovation is only something you yourself can enjoy.<br /><br />You think it's 'ironic' that doing something boring for thousands of hours will ultimately lead to innovation? Only if you ignore motivation. If your parents force you to play piano for thousands of hours, you'll never do anything innovative. If you force yourself to do something for thousands of hours (like Bill Gates sneaking into the computer labs at the age of 14), you will do something innovative. See the difference? Bill Gates didn't think Computers were boring.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-29228032768695842512011-08-21T22:21:49.760-04:002011-08-21T22:21:49.760-04:00True creativity requires technical proficiency.
T...<i>True creativity requires technical proficiency.</i><br /><br />Technical proficiency can enable greater creativity. <br />But that is not a given. That's why there are as many or more technically proficient artists that are not at all creative (e.g. many '80s guitar virtuosos) as there are technically proficient artists that are creative.<br /><br />Additionally, there are truly creative musicians and artists that may be considered "competent at what they do" yet not at all technically proficient. The Ramones, X (the LA punk band), the Sex Pistols, early rappers like the Sugar Hill Gang - you might not like these musicians, but generally, they are acknowledged as creative. In the field of literature, HP Lovecraft is often considered a terrible writer, but his ideas were so compelling that his stories resonated.<br /><br />So, it doesn't hurt to hone your craft. And whether or not you are technically proficient, you are going to have to do hard work to be creative. However, creativity doesn't require technical proficiency.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02147242353650746675noreply@blogger.com