tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post8543427849819542509..comments2024-03-18T07:07:53.346-04:00Comments on Ask a Korean!: Save the TigersT.K. (Ask a Korean!)http://www.blogger.com/profile/07663422474464557214noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-36609852511612712752018-09-02T16:32:53.130-04:002018-09-02T16:32:53.130-04:00If you read what he wrote, his family didn’t spend...If you read what he wrote, his family didn’t spend most of their money to move here. He clearly stated that their lawyer stole their money leaving them in a far worse state financially than they assumed they would have been if everything went according to plan. You also have to remember that the acceptance of foreign students in American colleges isn’t the same as today. Many families, including my own, moved from Korea to America so that their children would have time to acclimate/assimilate to the culture and language so they wouldn’t have to struggle with those barriers while also studying in college. Simply sending your child straight to an American college was most likely unheard of unless they were from extremely wealthy families. Comprehension of the English language was mandatory to be accepted but while we grew up here in America, that changed. Yes, if my parents never moved to America, my sister and I probably still could have attended American colleges. But at the time that my parents moved here(late 70’s), it was a dream that had no basis in reality that their children would be accepted. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09565973163590519496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-47091013127342666852018-08-09T17:16:55.688-04:002018-08-09T17:16:55.688-04:00It's an article of faith among Koreans that ch...It's an article of faith among Koreans that children owe their parents and ancestors a debt for the sacrifices they made, and the debt must be repaid by continuing the family line and sacrificing for your own kids. The idea that you owe gratitude to your parents and that you should have kids and make sacrifices for them is not in the least bit unique to Korea but it's a highly competitive and highly conformist society so it tends to take things to extremes. Hence the rejection of the notion that somewhere along the line there is room for individual happiness (not that the idea that happiness isn't the goal of human life is at all unique to Korea either).<br /><br />Another article of faith in Korea is that education is of extreme importance and that the best education is in America whereas Korean education sucks.<br /><br />It's also worth bearing in mind that Korea in 1997 was not as attractive a place to live as it is now, although no doubt that was much less true of successful professionals.<br /><br />The paradox remains: why sacrifice everything so your children can have a better life in another country if in the end they're only going to live lives of sacrifice? I guess it's not so bad to be a successful professional in the U.S.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17226758157157715512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-19304172114836024472018-07-31T23:07:26.842-04:002018-07-31T23:07:26.842-04:00TK Your point of view is too Asian for me to under...TK Your point of view is too Asian for me to understand, he he<br /><br />"The greatest lie of the modern society is we are individuals who must pursue our own, individualized version of happiness. In truth, happiness is overrated, and so is individuality"Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03918328151134226709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-69960978237147046682018-07-25T23:11:34.044-04:002018-07-25T23:11:34.044-04:00In your opinion, Asian Americans shouldn't rel...In your opinion, Asian Americans shouldn't rely on individuality and persue careers that are only gratifying to their own needs like the philosophy example you gave, but that behold higher social prestige to avoid the hardships of discrimination in America. Maybe I'm totally missing your point, which it's probably the case since I'm not so bright, but wouldn't that be against your closing statements in which you preach about giving the best version of oneself? I'm asking because I couldn't quite make something out of it and I really like some of your arguments and couldn't understand others. <br />Also, do you think tiger parenting correlates somehow with the high suicide rates that East Asian countries have? <br />I love this blog! Good wishes ^^ Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04756699587817789515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-62984971773446569502018-07-17T18:59:44.187-04:002018-07-17T18:59:44.187-04:00Hi TK, thank you for sharing your experience and t...Hi TK, thank you for sharing your experience and this writing helps me see with a new perspective. <br /><br />In fact, it is just in time with my own dilemma. I am currently struggling, because I changed my career at 29, which was 2 year ago. I knew at the start it is not going to be easy, I used to just kinda float in life and still coming to terms to being a rookie at 31. <br /><br />I needed the confirmation that struggling, difficulties is part of life. Admitting something is difficult not mean you're giving up. At this day and age, people only want to put out their best face, their good qualities so struggling feels solitary. Rasahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315627111986241419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-1733958609287744302018-07-13T21:28:20.608-04:002018-07-13T21:28:20.608-04:00It's obvious that you certainly feel that a ma...It's obvious that you certainly feel that a major part or perhaps even all your& brother's success was due to the knowledge you both had of how much your parents sacrificed to come here. Also, as with other immigrants you feel that knowledge of sacrifice for a better life created the hyper drive, the singular focus, and determination to overcome the odds to succeed at all costs in a very short timeframe. That's certainly a pro immigration message theme from your post. The old immigrant adage of "give me your tired, your poor, huddled masses..." <br /><br />In your case you succeeded. However, do you feel you and your brother would've ended up with a career much worse than lawyer and an engineer had you not immigrated? Obviously, if immigrating to US will provide an opportunity for an enormous success opportunity not available at a home country, it's a no brainer to come here. As a general rule I tend to believe if you come from an upper middle class family from a non white majority developed country such as Japan or South Korea, whatever extra incentive to succeed you may get from immigrating doesn't outweigh all the obstacles you'll face as a minority that you yourself stated in your post. Thus, even though your post maybe a pro immigration, I agree with Y's overall sentiment since I think you're probably an outlier. I would bet more upper middle class families who came here similar to your family's circumstance would've just gone back. Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08104871150949212205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-61032987155928199722018-07-13T09:35:40.803-04:002018-07-13T09:35:40.803-04:00It's pretty amazing to see you two totally mis...It's pretty amazing to see you two totally missing the point that I wrote plainly in the post.T.K. (Ask a Korean!)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07663422474464557214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-24588414578167536242018-07-13T02:47:15.573-04:002018-07-13T02:47:15.573-04:00I think about the whole "Asian Tiger" th...I think about the whole "Asian Tiger" thing on two levels. On one level, there's a valid, rich discussion to be had within the Asian immigrant and 1.5/2nd gen community about parenting. These include topics like to what extent parenting topics that "worked" decades ago in Asia make sense today, to what extent to force children to stick to things or to explore different interests, and how to parent in a society that, as you pointed out, is happy to let Asians succeed as long as white people are always slightly ahead. This discussion needs to acknowledge the difference of individual circumstances as well. I thought my mother was just an "Asian parent," and I didn't realize until past college that things like holding out a bottle of bleach and asking me to drink it because she was mad that I told her I was suicidal wasn't actually normal parenting for any cultural group. Then again, I am very grateful for the sacrifices she's made for me and for shaping my potential into something that could get a decent middle-class job. <br />On the broader level, though, most discussions of "Tiger Parenting" have the air of the freak show. "Look at those crazy, awful Asians! It's so horrifying, you can't rip your eyes away until you get to the end of the op-ed!" Admissions and hiring committees already had the stereotype that Asians were diligent and hardworking but never smart or creative. (Research has shown these are false dichotomies, but when have anyone's biases listened to research?) Now, faced with young Asians that are ever-more talented with ever-more achievements, the gatekeepers can just say it was the "Tiger Mother" and discredit every accomplishment.Wandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02920116687183692937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-76464535245399773582018-07-13T02:18:24.406-04:002018-07-13T02:18:24.406-04:00My instincts on the admissions questions are the o...My instincts on the admissions questions are the opposite, on the principle of expanding opportunities for people who were historically under-served. We know that due to things like stereotype threat, standardized tests tends to underestimate the potential of black and Latinx students, which means that relying on standardized tests as a sole measure of merit will cause you to miss out on some great students from those backgrounds. <br /><br />For the Harvard admissions- let me digress a little. One thing that stuck me from your post was the discussion of how so many Asian lawyers were fired in 2008. They were diligent, hardworking, and prone to doing what they were told, and now these were somehow suddenly bad things. Isn't that what Harvard admissions was saying about Asians too? That they were high performers, all right, but they had boring "personalities?" Well, if it wasn't OK for the law firms to do it, why is it OK for Harvard to do it? In effect, Harvard has been giving white applicants affirmative action, by increasing their personality scores relative to Asians.Wandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02920116687183692937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-90588372712402903222018-07-12T17:09:21.251-04:002018-07-12T17:09:21.251-04:00I do agree with your assessment regarding overall ...I do agree with your assessment regarding overall takeaway from author's post. His family's personal story is inspiring, but the gist of the post is that for majority of non white immigrants they have to outwork others just to maintain a decent professional career. Since most people from upper middle class families in an industrialized country can get a decent professional job, it's much better to just attend college here as a foreign student and then decide whether to stay here or not. I'm sure Samsung and other companies hire many lawyers and engineers in Korea too. The author went from living a good chunk of his formidable years in a society as a majority into a quasi insignificant minority in US, so I sense a bit of wistfulness from his posts on occasions. Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08104871150949212205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-36695683772870803682018-07-12T08:40:34.153-04:002018-07-12T08:40:34.153-04:00Google and Harvard's anti asian diverisity pim...Google and Harvard's anti asian diverisity pimps make feminists the cock puppets of white/asian privilege. lolRobert Callaghanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11211882347789815165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-20623405066781709942018-07-11T05:29:54.840-04:002018-07-11T05:29:54.840-04:00I never said that statement was what YOU were sayi...I never said that statement was what YOU were saying - that is what *I* get from your conclusions about tiger parenting. But never mind, it's clear that you're not likely to change your mind from the words of a random commenter.Y's.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03826602789908256525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-19784304825965190962018-07-11T02:58:50.590-04:002018-07-11T02:58:50.590-04:00BTW, I do agree that Tiger parenting of instilling...BTW, I do agree that Tiger parenting of instilling discipline, perseverance, and strong work ethic is paramount regardless of anyone's ethnic background. The major media outlets tend to give these alternative views from few Asian people disparaging Tiger parenting methods louder voice than they're really worth in order to generate a buzz. It's sort of akin to glorifying the college dropout success stories over the far more common and typical successful path most people take. If you took some of those people's view literally, they almost seem to feel ending up a doctor, lawyer, or an engineer is much worse than spending one's working life as a struggling actor/artists, etc.Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08104871150949212205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-36305676588007867912018-07-11T01:15:54.397-04:002018-07-11T01:15:54.397-04:00Most international students who attend universitie...Most international students who attend universities here don't immigrate with their entire family though. I am probably misinformed, thus my question to the author. It worked out well for TK's family, but to completely start over in a new country while spending most of family savings to do so seems like such a huge gamble to take for another well off family solely for educational purpose.Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08104871150949212205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-60351573215125092862018-07-11T00:42:18.969-04:002018-07-11T00:42:18.969-04:00Nathalie Ginzburg wrote a book in which she said t...Nathalie Ginzburg wrote a book in which she said things like, "As far as the education of children is concerned I think they should be taught not the little virtues but the great ones. Not thrift but generosity and an indifference to money; not caution but courage and a contempt of danger; nor shrewdness but frankness and a love of truth; not tact but love for one’s neighbour and self-denial; not a desire for success but a desire to be and to know. Usually we do just the opposite; we rush to teach them a respect for the little virtues, on which we build our whole system of education. In doing this we are choosing the easiest way, because the little virtues do not involve any actual dangers, indeed they provide shelter from Fortune’s blows."<br /><br />One thing to keep in mind, that your comments about Ryan Park reminded me of, is that one of the defining characteristics of the upper class is a certain effortlessness. That's what the Harvard admissions officers mean when they describe Asian students as "grinds" or "strivers"; we try too hard, and trying too hard lacks class. I suspect that Park actually does want his children to be ambitious; it's just that he's reached the stratosphere, and at that level it's gauche to wear your ambition on your sleeve. <br /><br />The grace to be a little careless is the privilege that Park's children and our children will have that we didn't. As much as I agree with Ginzburg, it's a lot easier to be indifferent to money when you know that your family has enough of it. Our parents taught us to be cautious and tactful because we really were one good kick from Fortune away from ruin. Our children will be different; we're earning six figures as professionals so that they'll have a chance (if they want it) to earn seven figures as startup founders or creative types or in other high-risk, high-reward endeavors. Or to be artisanal kombucha brewers or quixotic fighters of injustice or deep thinkers or whatever. Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03477129523371299539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-42426815460578825282018-07-11T00:42:06.375-04:002018-07-11T00:42:06.375-04:00Excellent piece, TK; I am not surprised that some ...Excellent piece, TK; I am not surprised that some readers don't seem to get it, though.<br /><br />My own anecdotes: the first-gen Korean immigrant father of my childhood friend David insisted that he and his brother become medical doctors. They spent their entire childhoods studying, and they were not allowed to attend college out of state. The college David attended was not a commuter school, but their father picked him up every Friday so that he could study at home all weekend. The brothers struggled on their MCATs, having to apply over the course of several years in order to improve their scores, and I think the younger one actually failed out of his first medical school and had to get his OD from a school in the Caribbeans. Honestly I think it was because they were just burnt the f___ out. Still, today they are practicing doctors who say they are grateful that their father rode them so hard. I can't help but wonder though what it cost them in terms of their emotional and social development and their relationships with others.<br /><br />My own parents (also first-gen Korean immigrants) were the complete opposite. Although they weren't shy about hoping that I would be a doctor, they always told me that I should do whatever made me happy. In retrospect, I wish that they had provided me with more guidance. I was a lazy student who did well in school through unearned talent and had to develop my own ethos as an adult. In the process I wasted a lot of time and squandered a lot of my potential.<br /><br />With my daughter I'm going to try to strike a balance. When she's old enough to take up a musical instrument, I'm going to make her practice, because I want her to learn that practice is the only way to get good at something, and that being good at something is incredibly satisfying. I want her to learn how to excel by the rules and then have the confidence to break the rules. I'm going to try not to care too much about her grades, but if she gets a bad grade it had better be because she's too busy learning about something she cares about to stick to the letter of the law, not because she's shirking.Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03477129523371299539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-12340644859384174982018-07-10T23:55:12.270-04:002018-07-10T23:55:12.270-04:00It's you who's misinformed. Primary and se...It's you who's misinformed. Primary and secondary education in the U.S. is only average among OECD countries, but the college and university system is probably the best in the world. Go to any American university and you will find the children of China's elite paying full price to attend; how many children of the U.S. elite attend college in East Asia?Philhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03477129523371299539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-54329312717129350092018-07-10T22:58:08.342-04:002018-07-10T22:58:08.342-04:00I didn't think I was speculating since you did...I didn't think I was speculating since you did mention in your post your parents gave up everything they spent decades building for the sole purpose of providing a better educational path for their children instead of education being one of the motivators for immigrating.Shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08104871150949212205noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-5243933953590993512018-07-10T22:56:18.783-04:002018-07-10T22:56:18.783-04:00that society isn't really a society worth livi...<i><b>that society isn't really a society worth living, and immigration isn't worth it</b></i> -> This is the exact opposite of what I said, which makes me think you didn't read my post carefully enough.T.K. (Ask a Korean!)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07663422474464557214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-80866289881983769942018-07-10T22:00:50.000-04:002018-07-10T22:00:50.000-04:00I've read your post again and again, thank you...I've read your post again and again, thank you. I still think that you are being hypocritical by discouraging immigration and then turning around and advocating for open borders and immigration. <br /><br />From your post, all I'm getting is that nonwhites are doomed to force themselves into greatness because of the racist society they live in - well then, that society isn't really a society worth living, and immigration isn't worth it, because while your family may have ended up conventionally successful, it doesn't mean other immigrant families are in the same intellectual or environmental situations that you were in to defeat the odds.<br /><br />There are also those who strive for individuality because the notions of duty to community or interconnectedness have done more harm than good in their upbringing. But sure, they should get over themselves and keep giving to the community that's harmed them, because that's how proper, fulfilled people live.Y's.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03826602789908256525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-44749834451774941392018-07-10T17:57:13.173-04:002018-07-10T17:57:13.173-04:00'My parents threw away their lives that they h...'My parents threw away their lives that they have built for decades and came to the U.S. for the sole purpose of giving my brother and me a better path of education.'<br /><br />First gen. parents say this all the time, but if you dig a little deeper there were other reasons why many immigrate every year. BKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07582877682296874942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-57052694267044689052018-07-10T10:46:15.658-04:002018-07-10T10:46:15.658-04:00You should re-read the post.You should re-read the post.T.K. (Ask a Korean!)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07663422474464557214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-28760335013635620272018-07-10T10:44:17.402-04:002018-07-10T10:44:17.402-04:00You were already speculating by giving two reasons...You were already speculating by giving two reasons. What's another one?T.K. (Ask a Korean!)https://www.blogger.com/profile/07663422474464557214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-38887206876796653152018-07-10T03:34:04.730-04:002018-07-10T03:34:04.730-04:00Coates writes about Michael Jackson, "I wonde...Coates writes about Michael Jackson, "I wonder if his life would have been different, would have been longer" had he less freedom. I've always wondered if his life would have been different had his father, Joseph Jackson, not been such a brutal tiger dad in the kid's youth.mitchcumsteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13049551614883090296noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-58574523655296980872018-07-09T19:24:53.126-04:002018-07-09T19:24:53.126-04:001) So you admit that your point discourages immigr...1) So you admit that your point discourages immigration. Why do you then advocate for open borders and be all pro-immigration if all immigrants have to go through this grueling, thankless process that is tiger parenting? Why didn't you just go back to Korea then? You can't advocate for immigration and then turn around and suggest immigration isn't worth it, that's hypocritical.<br /><br />2) Why do you think interconnectedness is the only proper way to live one's life? What you're saying is that there's only one "right" way to live life, and that every other person who strays from the path are all wrong. What makes you so sure that you have all the right ideas about the world and how people should live?Y's.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03826602789908256525noreply@blogger.com