tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post386493426385234..comments2024-03-26T03:31:06.199-04:00Comments on Ask a Korean!: Once Again: K-pop is Not a GenreT.K. (Ask a Korean!)http://www.blogger.com/profile/07663422474464557214noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-12329240698089368662017-07-15T08:47:21.100-04:002017-07-15T08:47:21.100-04:00Superb. I really enjoyed very much with this artic...Superb. I really enjoyed very much with this article here. Really it is an amazing article I had ever read. I hope it will help a lot for all. Thank you so much for this amazing posts and please keep update like this excellent article.thank you for sharing such a great blog with us. expecting for your.<br /><br />http://onedaytop.com/cats-mouth-cancer/Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13539661654256341206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-2564577273584337172017-07-09T04:21:17.297-04:002017-07-09T04:21:17.297-04:00تعد شركتنا افضل شركة صيانة مكيفات بمدينة جدة حيث ت...<br /><br />تعد شركتنا افضل شركة صيانة مكيفات بمدينة جدة حيث توفر لكم الشركة خدمات ممتازة وراقية <br /><a href="http://ewaan-clean.com/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%B5%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%A9-%D9%85%D9%83%D9%8A%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A8%D8%AC%D8%AF%D8%A9/" rel="nofollow">شركة صيانة مكيفات بجدة </a><br />بالاضافة الي قيام الشركة بعمليات التنظيف علي اكمل وجه ونقدم لكم خدمة تنظيف المكيفات بشكل راقي جدا <br /><a href="http://ewaan-clean.com/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D9%85%D9%83%D9%8A%D9%81%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A8%D8%AC%D8%AF%D8%A9/" rel="nofollow">شركة تنظيف مكيفات بجدة </a><br />ونحن كاسم كبير نقوم بخدمات كشف التسربات بمكة ونقوم بالعمل بافضل الاجهزة ونمتلك افضل الفنيين المتخصصين <br /><a href="http://ewaan-clean.com/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D9%83%D8%B4%D9%81-%D8%AA%D8%B3%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A8%D9%85%D9%83%D8%A9/" rel="nofollow">شركة كشف تسربات بمكة</a><br />كما يتوافر في الشركة خدمات العزل بكل انواعها واحجامها وتعد ايوان افضل شركة عوازل بجدة لما توفره لعملائها من خدمات علي مستوي عالي وراقي جدا <br /><a href="http://ewaan-clean.com/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%B9%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%B2%D9%84-%D8%A8%D8%AC%D8%AF%D8%A9/" rel="nofollow">شركة عوازل بجدة </a><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12788158754891469734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-56171786357178349422017-07-09T04:20:58.855-04:002017-07-09T04:20:58.855-04:00فى شركة العربى نقدم خدمة شركة تنظيف بحائل ان النظا...فى شركة العربى نقدم خدمة شركة تنظيف بحائل ان النظافه هى من اكثر واهم الامور التى قد تعفى الانسان من الامراض الكثيره لذلك شركة العربى تسعى دائما ان تقدم جميع اعمال التنظيف الى عملائها الذين يثقون بها<br /><a href="http://elarby-dammam-riyadh.com/%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%A6%D9%84/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%A6%D9%84/" rel="nofollow">شركة تنظيف بحائل</a><br />كما تقدم افضل الطرق الحديثه وتوفر لهم الراحه التامه وعدم المشقه فان شركتنا تسعد ان تقدم لحضراتكم افضل انواع النظافه العامه<br /><a href="http://elarby-dammam-riyadh.com/%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%A6%D9%84/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D9%81%D9%84%D9%84-%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%A6%D9%84/" rel="nofollow">شركة تنظيف فلل بحائل</a><br />وتحب ان تقدمها على اعلى مستوى من المستويات وفى نفس الوقت ان شركتنا لا تقبل المنافسه فى الاسعار حيث ان شركة العربى تعمل فى جميع اعمال النظافه فى حائل بارخص الاسعار وتقدم افضل العروض دائما لعملائها الكرام<br /><a href="http://elarby-dammam-riyadh.com/%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%A6%D9%84/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D9%85%D8%AC%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3-%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%A6%D9%84/" rel="nofollow">شركة تنظيف مجالس بحائل</a><br />من أهم أسباب سعادة الانسان وبالأخص عندما يتعلق الأمر بكيف يبدو منزلك, فإن تطلعاتك وأحلامك تصبح كبيرة، فمنزلك هو انعكاس لك، ولهذا السبب أنت بحاجة إلى<br /><a href="http://elarby-dammam-riyadh.com/%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%A6%D9%84/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D9%85%D9%86%D8%A7%D8%B2%D9%84-%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%A6%D9%84/" rel="nofollow">شركة تنظيف منازل بحائل</a><br />شركة تنظيف رخيصة ومجربة وثبتت انها الافضل بين الشركات فنحن نقدم افضل خدمات التنظيف فى شركة العربى حيث نضمن لك عملية التنظيف بدون اى اخطاء لاننا نسعى دائما لنكون افضل<br /><a href="http://elarby-dammam-riyadh.com/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D9%83%D9%86%D8%A8-%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%A7%D8%A6%D9%84/" rel="nofollow">شركة تنظيف كنب بحائل</a><br />وهدفنا هو الوصول الى القمه وكل ذلك عن طريق ارضاء عملائنا وتحسين ثقتهم بنا والقيام بعملنا على احسن وجه ولدينا فروع اخرى فى مدينة جازان مثل <br /><a href="http://elarby-dammam-riyadh.com/%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%B2%D8%A7%D9%86/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D8%A8%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%B2%D8%A7%D9%86/" rel="nofollow">شركة تنظيف بجازان</a><br />فنحن نقدم لكم شركة العربى من الشركات المميزه والرائده فى جازان وهى تقدم تنظيف البيوت على احسن وجه كما تقدم تنظيف فلل وتنظيف شقق وتنظيف مجالس وتنظيف واجهات وتنظيف مسابح وتنظيف خزانات<br /><a href="http://elarby-dammam-riyadh.com/%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%B2%D8%A7%D9%86/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D9%85%D9%86%D8%A7%D8%B2%D9%84-%D8%A8%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%B2%D8%A7%D9%86-2/" rel="nofollow">شركة تنظيف منازل بجازان</a><br />وتقوم شركتنا بالاعتماد على احدث الالات وعلى افضل انواع المنظفات العالميه التى تعمل على ازالة البقع كما تعمل على ازالة الاوساخ بسرعه كبيره وتقوم بخدمات اخرى كثيره <br /><a href="http://elarby-dammam-riyadh.com/%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%B2%D8%A7%D9%86/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D9%85%D8%AC%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3-%D8%A8%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%B2%D8%A7%D9%86/" rel="nofollow">شركة تنظيف مجالس بجازان</a><br />وكل ذلك نقوم به من خلال شركتنا شركة العربى بافضل الاسعار وارخصها التى تتناسب مع جميع الطبقات من العملاء والموظفين وغيرهم من الذين يقيمون فى جازان<br /><a href="http://elarby-dammam-riyadh.com/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D9%83%D9%86%D8%A8-%D8%A8%D8%AC%D8%A7%D8%B2%D8%A7%D9%86/" rel="nofollow">شركة تنظيف كنب بجازان</a><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12788158754891469734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-37363262617834024292017-07-03T03:38:47.660-04:002017-07-03T03:38:47.660-04:00Stop quoting me to defend your bullshit, or I will...Stop quoting me to defend your bullshit, or I will definitely haunt your ass. K-pop is idol pop, and it sucks. <br /><br />--your pal, George--feld_doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01361292441928316232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-39467085237211977812017-07-02T06:41:26.347-04:002017-07-02T06:41:26.347-04:00I don't have anything to say about what consti...I don't have anything to say about what constitutes K-pop, but the law is often confusing, controversial, or ridiculous precisely because it attempts, as it must, to impose a precise definition on terms of ordinary language.<br /><br />Wittgenstein covered this long ago. Science and law use concepts we can call logical because they are clearly defined, and any given object unambiguously either falls into a given category or it does not. The concepts of language, on the other hand, are what he dubbed 'family resemblance categories' for which membership can be unclear: a given object may be a typical, untypical, or ambiguous member of the 'family' depending on how many family features it possesses.<br /><br />This is what makes a question such as whether K-pop constitutes a genre or not difficult to answer definitively, giving, as I think The Korean is trying to do, a rigid answer. From an outsider's perspective, it all looks and sounds pretty similar! But I'll admit there are plenty of songs that don't fit the mould. Perhaps The Korean's point is that it's a broad category covering all the pop music coming out of Korea in all its hitherto unsuspected diversity of styles?Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17226758157157715512noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-11275575214319440502017-06-07T15:40:49.469-04:002017-06-07T15:40:49.469-04:00Good post. Can you tackle this issue next? Appar...Good post. Can you tackle this issue next? Apparently 'nureongi' means edible Korean dog and not yellow dog on wikipedia.Andrew Leehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07942327920755262606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-90451255027147274082017-06-07T00:53:27.619-04:002017-06-07T00:53:27.619-04:00I can't listen to the Brown Eyed Girls now wit...I can't listen to the Brown Eyed Girls now without thinking about this :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-3516833251830810992017-06-02T07:36:50.515-04:002017-06-02T07:36:50.515-04:00We got it, but now please let's get into this ...We got it, but now please let's get into this top 6, we have waited long enough :-) <br />I hope you won't write another post on what "K-pop" means. The majority is with you.Soviet Samhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15461078255340835933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-15879207481295482722017-06-01T11:28:00.251-04:002017-06-01T11:28:00.251-04:00This approach, identifying K-pop by describing its...This approach, identifying K-pop by describing its quiddity, is wrong-headed from the start.<br /><br />Let's borrow for a second from deconstructionist language theory and acknowledge that meanings are negotiated and in flux: sure "brown" doesn't mean "white." OK. But "Brown" doesn't even mean "brown" to someone with a different frame of reference.<br /><br />Thus: insisting that "brown" "means" nothing but YOUR concept of "brown" does nothing to facilitate communication. Doing so only confuses and frustrates (and draws clicks and views, right?).<br /><br />Language gestures and negotiates. There is no one-to-one correspondence between words and what is signified. Thinking so is idealistic and naive.<br /><br />A different approach altogether is needed. It's more productive to focus on utility and richness.schang1https://www.blogger.com/profile/04701300153316126986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-89654073204806614422017-05-31T18:05:58.809-04:002017-05-31T18:05:58.809-04:00While I acknowledge your stance on the K-pop/genre...While I acknowledge your stance on the K-pop/genre argument, I do see some flaws in your logic. By strict definition, K-pop is not exactly a genre. However, from a linguistic approach your definition of what a word means is not entirely correct. <br /><br />Moreover, idol-pop is the most popular music produced in South Korea today. By heuristics, K-pop is viewed by many international listeners as idol pop. It has such a distinct style that many people regard it as its own genre of music. <br /><br />Thanks for the post! I'm glad to see that we have similar taste in music.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02760181993092867801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-72282682536795281542017-05-31T12:02:01.902-04:002017-05-31T12:02:01.902-04:00Also, while the brown dog white cat metaphor is ad...Also, while the brown dog white cat metaphor is adorable, a more appropriate one would have been: instead of showing a picture of a white cat, show a brown African Wild Dog. So yes, it's a "brown dog", but it's not even part of the Canis genus. At some point all these animals were called "dog" because, hell, they all look like dogs. But as we saw more and more we could appreciate the difference between a dog and wolf, and coyote, and jackal, and African Wild Dog. So the descriptor "dog" became more specific, and let the other things that were different have different terms, and this is fine.AnacondaHLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08400468968341388850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-83302865675003345502017-05-31T11:43:31.779-04:002017-05-31T11:43:31.779-04:00While I get the danger of political abuse of word ...While I get the danger of political abuse of word abstraction, on the other hand I believe people are ultimately efficient, and if a word adjusts in meaning over the years there is usually a viable reason for it.<br /><br />Back in the 90s I recall the rise of the term K-Pop referring to stuff from H.O.T. to Drunken Tiger was K-Pop because it was "popular music from Korea that was popular enough to make it America". We would take anything we could get. As the years rolled on, K-Pop that made it here would still sound like 90's music but with a sprinkle of Modern musicality, and also in Korean.<br /><br />And that persisted today, where plenty of Korean popular music still sounds like 90s Pop music mixed with other Modern elements and also is Korean. So for simplicity, the same "Pop" is used to describe something more descriptive in American Pop and Britpop and JPop and whatever, we call this "K-Pop". It just happens to be the same term used 20 years ago.<br /><br />What enabled this? The growth of the "K-Pop" industry. With more options, more styles, the Internet to share, music from Korea can now be categorized further. I'd argue that the evolution of "K-Pop" from meaning popular music from Korea to Korean Pop music speaks to how far the industry has succeeded, and should be welcomed, such that we don't have to lump Tiger JK into the same category as Red Velvet for the desparation of selling internationally. They can be sold on their own merits.<br /><br />So even if "K-Pop" isn't a genre, I argue: let it become one. Let there be distinction, to celebrate the success of Korean music of all genres internationally. The catchy, simplistic, catchy music with pretty boys/girls and music based on 90s Pop can be called "K-Pop", and other music from Korea that happens to be popular but doesn't fall into this can be called [TBD] or [TBD], etc.<br /><br />Besides: counter-culture is an important dichotomy to have in the music industry. If you want to maximize profit, you can't just have Pop. You need another option to pickup the rest of the demographics that specifically avoid Pop, and listen to another popular music under a different label to feel good about themselves. Korean music has made it.AnacondaHLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08400468968341388850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-43982958968624790192017-05-30T03:57:58.746-04:002017-05-30T03:57:58.746-04:00As an active musician in Korea who is definitely n...As an active musician in Korea who is definitely not in a K-Pop group, I see two major problems with the foundation of this whole argument. First, taking such a literal definition-based take on artistic expression is a problem. Stephen hit on a lot of specifics, but my main argument is simpler. "Pop Music" hasn't simply meant "popular music" in decades. Calling something pop music, has implications. Slayer has sold millions of records and sold out stadiums. Anybody who would call them pop music has no place talking about music. Ask people on the street what pop music is, and you'll get things like Michael Jackson, George Michael, Madonna, Britney Spears, N'Sync, etc. While there is room for variation, overall, it has an implied meaning beyond, "top of the charts."<br /><br />Second, your basic premise that Koreans are misinterpreting how foreign fans use the term is absurd. If the "K" stands for "Korean," why is what foreigners think the term means more important? I guess the Chinese character tattoo the college frat guy got really does mean "Strength."Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05285281721667811750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-63620314074773422522017-05-30T02:35:48.512-04:002017-05-30T02:35:48.512-04:00If I can persuade you to think through and accept ...If I can persuade you to think through and accept Fuhr’s take that underlines his book for (1)—:, I think we can go somewhere with your statement here “I will acknowledge that "K-pop" is a genre or a style--a defined concept--if anyone can show me: (1) the key characteristics that run across most pieces of music that people call "K-pop"; (2) archetypical examples of "K-pop"; (3) archetypical examples of Korean popular music that is not considered "K-pop." For (2), how about if we then take SNSD’s “Gee”, Hyuna’s “Bubble Pop” and Bib Bang’s “Fantastic Baby” and then for (3), we can put in the music of, e.g., Jambinai, RUX and 3rd Line Butterfly. I recognize that this is where contestation/negotiation/dispute comes into play, but we are very far from being able to assert that K-pop = Korean popular music. Maybe I can nudge you more toward accepting that K-pop is a style or genre.<br /><br />By the way, you also go astray and run into the danger of circular reasoning by citing the “K-pop Night Out” for evidence, as that event has been a problematic venture in being KOCCA-sponsored and a top-down initiative designed for national branding. The whole idea is to help stamp that good old special K on to Korean music as a branding tool and it overreaches. A lot of bands have been willing to play on that bill because of the very significant exposure it has brought them, but I think it is safe to say that a lot of them would prefer not to be lumped in with K-pop. <br /><br />People who know more about the back story than I do can fill in the details about the discussions between the SXSW organizers and KOCCA but again: really bad example to draw upon. In fact, if you’re going to cite the Wikipedia page on K-pop to back up some of your points (and I think you’re extrapolating and reading in some statements that aren’t there about the meaning of K-pop, simply because the article gives a wider history of Korean popular music to set context), you might also want to note this Wikipedia page on K-Pop Night Out that gives counter-evidence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-Pop_Night_Out_at_SXSW<br /><br />My work on the punk and underground scenes strongly suggests that for a lot of those involved, their own key criteria for what drives their music is opposition to the mainstream (juryu) even when they have been happy to declare an allegiance to Korea. That’s why terms like hanguk hip-hap (see the work of Kelly Song on this topic) were deliberately chosen *not* to engage with the way that K is tossed around as a state-sponsored marketing tool. It’s also why we wound up with ironic terms like joseon peongkeu. You’re also wrong when you state “Words like "K-rock" or "K-rap" do not exist.” In fact, we do have the term K-indie, which is used from time to time, but does not meet with favour from a lot of committed indie musicians, precisely for the reasons I suggest. For more on these issues, I direct you to my article “Us and Them: Korean Indie Rock in a K-pop World: http://apjjf.org/-Stephen-Epstein/4401. <br /><br />Perhaps one even easier way out here, as a few people have already suggested, if you don’t like Fuhr’s more abstract definition is to say that K-pop = all pop music from Korea, but is not = all popular music from Korea. There is extensive literature, filled of course with similar debates, on distinguishing pop music and popular music. I’m not going to rehearse them and I’ve already gone longer than I intended, so will cut this now.<br /><br />Cheers, Stephen<br />Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091829387796617513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-52828192175403118422017-05-30T02:35:03.144-04:002017-05-30T02:35:03.144-04:00Hi TK,
As you know, I’m an admirer of your blog, s...Hi TK,<br />As you know, I’m an admirer of your blog, so please don’t regard what follows as against you or your work generally. I do, though, have to take issue with your arguments on K-pop and not let them go unchallenged, given your influential status as an interpreter of Korea for the world at large. <br /><br />You’ve adopted a strong position in polemical terms about the need to understand K-pop as meaning all popular music from Korea and not being a genre or style. But as somebody who engages K-pop (and Korean popular music) seriously, with academic publications and a couple of documentaries on the topic, I have to dissent: in the current popular negotiation of the term, there is no question that K-pop has come to represent a clear subset, and not the entirety, of Korean popular music. <br /><br />I’ll try to keep this as concise as possible, so let me restrict this to key points. We agree that the boundaries of K-pop are fuzzy, aren’t used with rigour, and cannot be rigidly defined, but it does not follow that they can be extended anywhere near as widely as you suggest. Where to place generic boundaries surfaces as a problem in the discussion of virtually every category, from sandwiches, as you discuss, to, say, punk rock. <br />To use your sandwich analogy, I think you are wrong when you say “Although the precise line may be difficult to draw, we all know that there must be a line somewhere, because there are certain things in the world that we will never call a "sandwich" even if those things might come fairly close. There must be a line, because we know it is possible to cross the line.” I disagree. Only rarely is there a clear line; instead one confronts a continuum around a grey area, for which there is a process of negotiation and inevitable dispute. The key in determining a genre is how people negotiate that large grey area in common discourse. <br /><br />You go on to posit a strawman in envisioning a definition of K-pop when you write: “… what are the key characteristics that run across the music that people call "K-pop"? If you answer "highly processed music performed by beautiful people who were groomed by management agencies," you cannot explain why Gangnam Style is considered K-pop, nor can you explain why Seo Taiji and Boys is considered the fountainhead of K-pop, nor can you explain why Kim Wan-seon is never included in the canon of K-pop history.” <br /><br />The definition you give is certainly not mine, though, and likely not to be the definition of a lot of people, even if it is a better definition of idol pop. Here is scholar Michael Fuhr from his recent Routledge book Globalization and Popular Music in South Korea: Sounding Out K-pop where he takes a more holistic view of how to understand what K-pop represents and why it draws attention: “K-pop is a thoroughly hybridized product, a unique coalescence of music, visuals, lyrics, dance and fashion, a postmodern product of pastiche and parody, a carnivalesque celebration of difference, a shiny world of escapism, and a highly participatory cultural practice enacted through digital media.” <br /><br />What you can extract from this description is that a central, defining feature of K-pop is that it goes beyond the merely sonic and is a generic mode that incorporates other qualities, often visual. Fuhr’s definition, to my mind, thus lets you include PSY, exclude Kim Wan-sun, and put Seo Taiji at the beginning of a long line of K-pop with his globalized, hip-hop inflected and highly visual brand of blending music with youth culture—but in both of the latter two cases, we start to push the margins into that grey area and people can argue on where they shade in and out of the prehistory of K-pop; some of the issue is temporal. Fuhr also, btw, easily allows you to include more recent artists like IU and BST and FT Island, whom you cite early on, without having to say that K-pop = all popular music from Korea. (see pt. 2)<br />Stephenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091829387796617513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-33681411591524133842017-05-28T20:25:15.462-04:002017-05-28T20:25:15.462-04:00K-pop is about numbers. Chart-topping groups and ...K-pop is about numbers. Chart-topping groups and songs equate to 'pop' in the USA, and the same happens here in Korea. But you can't choose obscure references to Korean music diversity to assume K-pop's diversity. I'd argue that the top 100 most popular songs should be used to define K-pop. Lots of ballads, lots of idols. After all, pop isn't really a set genre, it's just the most popular stuff. Sure, I wish popular American music wasn't just Ariana Grande and Ed Sheeran, but it is, isn't it? We can't classify all good wine as "French wine", just like we can't classify all good Korean music as K-pop. I love Korean hip-hop and alt, but it just doesn't seem to be 'K-pop' here.Benjihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02292152779971241573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-15690791848491794412017-05-28T04:56:18.055-04:002017-05-28T04:56:18.055-04:00I) Despite the fact that we consider PSY a hip-hop...I) Despite the fact that we consider PSY a hip-hop artist, the vast majority of the songs that he makes that are popular these are also pop songs (hybridized with both electronic dance and hip-hop), holding true to most of the definitions of pop, so including him does not discount pop music. Similarly, BTS' music would fall under pop as much as they fall under hip-hop, so they are as much pop musicians as they are hip hop. But the music of straight hip hop artists like Swings or Dok2 would likely not be considered "K-pop" by this particular audience (and fans of Korean hip hop are very sure to explain this to you on the internet if you dare make such a claim). Similarly, CN Blue's music is pop rock and therefore eligible for classification as "pop". However, I'm pretty sure that "K-pop" fans wouldn't consider pure punk and hardcore like that of Lee Yong-won or the metal of Vassline as "K-pop". So, as such, it is possible that the exclusions are more towards music that is clearly not pop--therefore it is possible that "K-pop" does actually mean "Korean pop".<br /> II) TK does make a good argument that "K-pop" fans point at the birth of "K-pop" as Seo Taiji and fail to include older examples of pop music in the lineage, but I think that's much more of a problem of ignorance than intentional exclusion. I imagine if you pointed out Kim Wan-seon or Kim Choo-ja and their music to "K-pop" fans they might be more than willing to expand their definition of "K-pop" and its history to include their music. I'm much less certain that they would expand as such to include Deulgukhwa or Han Dae-soo. As such, there is again a strong argument for international fans meaning "Korean pop", not "Korean popular music".<br /> III) So now we must look for better counterexamples, are there any inclusions of pure non-pop genre artists into the roster of what international fans call "K-pop"? Are there any pure pop artists that they would exclude? Discounting ignorance, a strong counter-example would properly disable the argument that "K-pop" means "Korean pop", but as it is, the music produced by all artists that I can think of as being considered "K-pop" definitely falls under the rubric of "pop" (very generally--per Wikipedia: "short to medium-length songs written in a basic format [often the verse-chorus structure], as well as the common use of repeated choruses, melodic tunes, and hooks").<br /><br />3) If one cannot argue that they mean "Korean pop" by virtue of counter-example, then I simply cannot see any other consistent definition of what they could mean, rendering "K-pop" as meaning "Korean popular music that we like outside of Korea" or "hallyu" as TK quotes Lee Ilwoo above, and as such, definitely not a genre as T.K. suggests.refresh_daemonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14461891308315532959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-55515528036881517482017-05-28T04:56:03.322-04:002017-05-28T04:56:03.322-04:00All right, I get where TK is coming from, so here ...All right, I get where TK is coming from, so here are some further observations:<br /><br />1) If and only if by "K-pop" we are exclusively meaning "Popular music of Korea", it is definitely not a genre.<br /> A) This is obvious--as soon as you say a word means as expansive a term as "popular music", it simply cannot be a genre as there are few delineations that mark it as a genre.<br /> B) A concurrent definition and one that music scholars use, is that "K-pop" means "Korean pop music", rather than "popular music". This is a genre insofar as "pop music" is a genre with established characteristics that pass the above described sandwich test (a genre that even has multiple subgenres). It's a broad genre with loose boundaries like "rock", but definitely a musical genre, unless one is also disinclined to count both "pop" and "rock" as genres (which is definitely arguable), in which case I will concede that one legitimately believes that "K-pop" meaning "Korean pop" is not a genre.<br /><br />2) "Korean popular music" is not what most international fans of what they call "K-pop" mean when they say the word as they will likely provide a number of delineations, so arguing that line of reasoning doesn't work. The heart of the argument here is whether the way internationals using the word "K-pop" even have any kind of consistent definition of the word at all and *if* that definition actually describes a musical genre.<br /> A) Before we investigate, a little clarity: We often ascribe artists to be X genre, but we must note that we mean that they make music in that genre, not that they are the genre. Genre describes a set of boundaries on music, not musicians and one musician can make music can make music of multiple genres. Therefore an artist like Epik High can make make music that is pop-rock ("Don't Hate Me"), but can also make music that is hip-hop ("Born Hater"), and could consequently be considered both a pop group (because they do write and perform a good amount of pop music) as well as a hip-hop group.<br /> B) If international fans are rejecting any particular kind of Korean music as being "K-pop", then it is clear that there are some delineations being made as to what constitutes "K-pop" in their minds, so let's ask what they might be rejecting:<br /> <br />Continued in followup post--refresh_daemonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14461891308315532959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-91948960010114905462017-05-27T21:08:02.970-04:002017-05-27T21:08:02.970-04:00Is cereal... soup?Is cereal... soup?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11991827942804122094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-34428903769580815882017-05-27T16:31:15.910-04:002017-05-27T16:31:15.910-04:00How about cultural appropriation? Looking at the m...How about <a href="http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2016/06/appropriate-appropriation.html" rel="nofollow">cultural appropriation</a>? Looking at the meaning of the constituent words and a few cases of things leftists have objected to as examples can fairly lead one to conclude that "<a href="http://thefederalist.com/2015/05/07/cultural-appropriation-is-culture/" rel="nofollow">Culture is cultural appropriation</a>." Clearly the use of noodles in cooking by non-Chinese can't be condemned on any rational grounds, but until I read your post on the issue which defines the concept alongside the perfect graphic example, I had not been able to see it as a concept that could be in any way useful. So should those who agree that cultural appropriation is a good thing to stop doing, and to call out when we see it be using a less misleading label, like maybe "cultural mis-appropriation"? <br /><br />I know it's not the most burning issue in the world, but interesting to me because it's a thing I would tend to dismiss, and did until I read your post, so just now, I look for a representative example of the kind of things that have been condemned under the label, and I find <a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/04/cultural-appropriation/521634/" rel="nofollow">this story</a>, of a speaker being told he doesn't have the right to tell a tragic story because of what color he is, and I am reminded of why I once believed the concept to have no rational use.Cedar Bristolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16265238073694388741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36405856.post-62584027774624146392017-05-27T14:27:50.994-04:002017-05-27T14:27:50.994-04:00Well now I want a sandwich. But seriously, very in...Well now I want a sandwich. But seriously, very interesting and well argued. I hope you make it to the Supreme Court someday. To bad Scalia won't be there to spar with! Donhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02791165343971441307noreply@blogger.com