Friday, October 04, 2013

Excreting the Dregs

Dear Korean, 

Recently, I realized I know more Asian women who are married to white guys than Asian women married to Asian men. Why is that? And why does it bother me so much? (Disclaimer: I do not live in Flushing, Palisades Park, Annandale, Koreatown NY or LA, etc, where Koreans are the majority.) I am already happily married, and I know that whom one decides to fall in love with is none of my business regardless of race, sex, etc. Nonetheless, I am bothered by this trend, not on a personal level but more on a macro level. Don't know why it bothers me but it does. 

Pete

Allow the Korean to open with a poem:
이불을 꿰매면서 (박노해)
Sewing the Blanket (by Bak No-hae)
이불홑청을 꿰매면서
As I sew the blanket cover
속옷 빨래를 하면서
As I launder the underwear
나는 부끄러움의 가슴을 친다
I beat my chest in shame

똑같이 공장에서 돌아와 자정이 넘도록
We both return from the factory; until past midnight
설거지에 방청소에 고추장단지 뚜껑까지
마무리하는 아내에게
To the wife who washed dishes, cleaned the room
and checked the lid of the gochujang pot
나는 그저 밥달라 물달라 옷달라 시켰었다
I simply ordered, give me food, water and clothes
동료들과 노조일을 하고부터
Ever since I began the labor union with colleagues
거만하고 전제적인 기업주의 짓거리가
The deeds of the arrogant, imperialistic capitalist have been,
대접받는 남편의 이름으로
In the name of the esteemed husband,
아내에게 자행되고 있음을 아프게 직시한다
Perpetrated to the wife; this, I painfully face.

명령하는 남자, 순종하는 여자라고
Men order, women obey
세상이 가르쳐 준 대로
So the world taught me
아내를 야금야금 갉아먹으면서
As I ate away the wife
나는 성실한 모범근로자였다
I was a diligent, model worker

노조를 만들면서
As I establish the union
저들의 칭찬과 모범표창이
Their praise and awards were
고양이 꼬리에 매단 방울소리임을,
Just the sounds of bells on the cat's tail
근로자를 가족처럼 사랑하는 보살핌이
Their talk of loving the workers like their family was
허울 좋은 솜사탕임을 똑똑히 깨달았다
Just a puffed-up cotton candy; this, I clearly realized.

편리한 이론과 절대적 권위와 상식으로 포장된
몸서리쳐지는 이윤추구처럼
Like the shuddering pursuit of profit,
wrapped in a convenient theory, absolute authority and common sense,
나 역시 아내를 착취하고
I, too, exploit the wife, and
가정의 독재자가 되었다
Became the tyrant of the home
투쟁이 깊어 갈수록 실천 속에서
As the struggle deepens, in my actions
나는 저들의 찌꺼기를 배설해 낸다
I excrete their dregs
노동자는 이윤 낳는 기계가 아닌 것처럼
That, as the laborers are not the machine that lays profit
아내는 나의 몸종이 아니고
The wife is not a servant of mine;
평등하게 사랑하는 친구이며 부부라는 것을
That she is a friend, a spouse, who loves equally
우리의 모든 관계는 신뢰와 존중과
민주주의에 바탕해야 한다는 것을
That all of our relationship must be
based on trust, respect and democracy
잔업 끝내고 돌아올 아내를 기다리며
Waiting for the wife, who will return after finishing overtime
이불홑청을 꿰매면서
Sewing the blanket cover
아픈 각성의 바늘을 찌른다
I prick the painful needle of realization
*                  *                  *

Pete's question is common among Asian American men. It is hardly a secret that there is a massive gender disparity in interracial marriages involving Asian Americans. 5.2% of Chinese American men are married white women; 14.5% of Chinese American women are married to white men. 7.9% of Filipino men are married to white women; 27% of Filipino women are married to white men. 18.8% of Japanese American men are married to white women; 38.1% of Japanese American women are married to white men. 5.2% of Korean American men are married to white women; 24.4% of Korean American women are married to white men.

To this reality, Pete's reaction is common among Asian American men: we are vaguely bothered, even as we recognize that it is none of our business who falls in love with whom. What is going on?

(More after the jump)

Got a question or a comment for the Korean? Email away at askakorean@gmail.com.




This trend bothers Asian American men because it is a real-life manifestation of the racism that they face in the United States. The stereotypes against Asian American men are commonly known--small, short, scrawny, nerdy, awkward. Those stereotypes uniformly point towards a single direction: emasculation. This emasculation is a specific breed of racism that Asian American men face. Racism, broadly, makes members of racial minority less of a person; emasculation, specifically, makes Asian American men less of a man.

What makes this worse is that Asian American women often internalize these emasculating stereotypes about Asian American men. This is not to give any validation to the crude charge that Asian American women fall over themselves for white guys. (In fact, Asian American women smartly recognize it when they are being blatantly objectified based on their race.) Rather, this is to say Asian American women--as does everyone the United States--subconsciously internalize the white-normative aesthetics of our society. It is not really that being white in America is particularly beautiful; it is that being white is the default, and all other races are measured by how far it deviates from the default. No one says "oxygen is my favorite air," because that would be silly. Oxygen is just normal; so is being white in America. Even as Asian American women would quickly get away from gross forms of yellow fever, they subconsciously gravitate toward whiteness simply because it feels normal.

Observing this trend as an Asian American man is frustrating, even though one may be happily married and have a strong conviction that whom people fall in love with is their own business. The frustration is difficult to articulate, because that's the defining characteristic of the phenomenon that we are seeing: the unspoken, invisible standard that devalues us. Subconscious motivation generates real results in real life. Yet when we try to capture it, it slips through the gap between intuition and language like water through our fingers. Only through critical examination that looks far below the surface can the invisible be made visible: that, even as Asian American women are making the adult decisions of selecting whom they date and marry, the process of such selection is not free from the subconscious racism that debases Asian American men.

Asian American men, however, should be ready to also critically examine the way in which we respond to this insidious racism against us. It is an eternal pattern of human history for the oppressed to turn around and create their own version of petty tyranny in the spheres within their control. Unable to precisely identify the invisible force that frustrates us, we lash out in a way that only exposes our own invisible force that we ourselves hold over others. Too often, the reaction by young, frustrated Asian American men degenerates into the pathetic cries of "They took our women!" or "Our own kind betrays us!" By doing so, we repay the debasement we experience by debasing others.

Hence, the Korean began this post with the poem by Bak No-hae. Bak is a famed labor activist and poet, who exposed the brutality of Korea's labor conditions of the 1980s in raw, powerful language. Although his poems were banned and he was sentenced to death for establishing a socialist organization, his first anthology The Dawn of Labor [노동의 새벽] reportedly reached the hands of more than a million readers. (Bak's sentence was reduced to life in prison, and was pardoned in 1998 after seven years of prison.)

In one of his most famous poems, Bak takes the needle of criticism toward himself, and reflects on how he became a petty tyrant over his wife even as he was organizing the union to fight for the laborer's wife. The line, "As the struggle deepens, in my actions / I excrete their dregs", hammers the point home. Rather than broadly fighting oppression in every form, our tendency is to perpetuate a smaller version of it, as if to compensate for our misery by inflicting more misery on those lower in the chain. Rather than cleaning up the oppression, we secrete our own and spread it to those around us.

What is an Asian American man to do? We must still be aware of racism, visible and invisible. We must be able to precisely identify and combat it, and prevent our reaction from constructing a smaller ecosystem in which we likewise lord over others. All the while being ready to recognize the superstructural understanding that holds our society together--that there is such a thing as an adult decision made pursuant to free will.

Doing all of this at the same time is not easy. But the recognition that the world is a complex place, and the ability to allocate our thoughts toward multiple moving parts at the same time, are essential parts of attaining maturity. This is the world we live in, and this is the only way to make sense of it.

Got a question or a comment for the Korean? Email away at askakorean@gmail.com.

232 comments:

  1. I am white and was in a long term relationship with a Korean-American man for a number of years. Early in our relationship, as I was starting to introduce him to the people in my life, I was a little put off by people's reactions. Most of my friends expressed surprise that I would date an Asian guy and I shrugged it off as racism and being exposed to something they didn't normally see. What shocked me most was the reaction of the Asian women I knew. My Vietnamese childhood friend, my Cambodian roommate, my Korean-American coworker all approached me to have a "serious discussion" about why I shouldn't date Asian men. The conversations were eerily similar -- all of them told stories of how their father treated their mother poorly, their brothers treated their girlfriends poorly, that they had been treated much worse than their brothers growing up and warned me to not be fooled into thinking this man would be different from all the Asian men they knew. I ignored them and happily dated my boyfriend for a few years before ultimately breaking up for reasons unrelated to their warnings. However, whenever I see an Asian woman / Caucasian man couple walking down the street, I always wonder if that woman has similar thoughts to my friends.

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    1. I applaud you for being able look critically at the "advice" you received from your asian friends. Unfortunately, I think many asian women have this "the grass is greener on the other side" thinking that causes them to believe white households are immune to domestic difficulties. While older generation immigrants may hold on to some patriarchal values from their native country, this is simply not the case for those who grew up in America or are currently living in modernized asian societies. While I would not try to criticize an asian woman's choice to marry a white man, I do think the larger trends deserve to be critically examined. As an asian american man, I tend to prefer asian american women. I am successful by American standards, good looking, have a culturally diverse set of friends, and hold absolutely no patriarchal or sexist attitudes. However, I've faced a moderately high degree of discrimination from asian women to the point that my past several girlfriends have been white. This is not because of preference, but due to my personal experience of being held to an impossible standard that many asian women put on asian men - to be white. I sometimes laugh at the irony of my situation, that white women have discriminated against me less than the women of my own race.

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    2. "Most of my friends expressed surprise that I would date an Asian guy and I shrugged it off as racism and being exposed to something they didn't normally see. What shocked me most was the reaction of the Asian women I knew. My Vietnamese childhood friend, my Cambodian roommate, my Korean-American coworker all approached me to have a "serious discussion" about why I shouldn't date Asian men. The conversations were eerily similar -- all of them told stories of how their father treated their mother poorly, their brothers treated their girlfriends poorly, that they had been treated much worse than their brothers growing up and warned me to not be fooled into thinking this man would be different from all the Asian men they knew."

      Asian women have long served as the fifth column within Asian communities in the diaspora. Arguably, they have collectively done as much or nearly as much to sabotage the public perception of Asian men. But sadly, I have not been able to figure out quite why.

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    3. A familiar refrain: Minority men are to bear perpetual collective responsibility for the actions of their worst.

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  2. 50,000 comments from expat crowd about how TK is just projecting his inferiority complex on this post in 3... 2...

    Seriously, on the Marmot's Hole? Bunch of dudes talking about Korean penises.

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    1. LOL! they do seem... obsessed.

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    2. So what else do men have to complain about anyway? A lot of this post sounds like a bunch of male whining to me anyway. White guys marry our women, boo hoo. Let's just ask ourselves where we get these stereotypes anyway. I maintain that Asian women marry white men in America for more reasons than just cultural stereotypes. They marry them for real life advantages.

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    3. And what are these "real life advantages" you keep on mentioning? It's certainly not economical as asian men have the highest income. It's certainly not for cultural understanding. It's also not about more freedom and autonomy, asian american men don't hold the same patriarchal views as their ancestors no more than modern white men subscribe to the idea of slavery. It's certainly not because domestic abuse as asian american couples have the lowest rates domestic violence in the country.

      There is only one "benefit" an asian woman gains from not marrying an asian man and that is not being associated with the cultural stigma placed on asian men by white culture.

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    4. Personally, I blame the Japanese.

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    5. ooh marmot in the house! i've always wanted to ask you Robert, which hole are you really referring to on your blog?

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    6. Well, the marmot's, obviously. Seriously, though, it's a long story and an uninteresting one at that.

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    7. http://colbertnation.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/colbert_report/video_archive/season_4/cr_04009_01_v6.jpg

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    8. Perhaps, but for the record, I played no part on that.

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    9. marmot, thanks for clearning that up, re the hole that is.

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    10. "Personally, I blame the Japanese."

      That has got to be the funniest line ever.

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  3. Interesting article. In light of your conclusion that we must be careful how we react to oppression/racism, I would make one change: "Racism, broadly, makes members of A RACE less of a person." Racism shouldn't be defined in terms of majority vs. minority and everybody should be careful not to be racist, especially considering how easy of a reaction it becomes when we ourselves face racism.

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  4. I tend to agree racism is a big factor here overall but there appears to be other big factors at work here...FIFTY SEVEN percent of US Raised women of Korean descent are married to white men in a US Raised paired with another US raised scenario. Korean women are the only ones who pass the 50 percent mark in that scenario. The comparable number for Japanese women is a mere 29.9 %. That means that about 27 percentage point difference among US Raised Japanese and Korean women are due to some difference between THEM, and NOT because of emasculation of asian men in general.

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    1. I don't know where you got your 57% number, but this is completely false. Please refer to the most recent American census report.

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    2. From the same source that TK's post links to.

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    3. It seems that for both Korean men and Korean women raised in the US, the proportion that marries outside their race is the highest among all asian americans. One obvious reason I didn't think of right away, I think, is the relatively high number of adoptees who are Korean, who were adopted into white families.

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    4. I was looking for gender statistics about Korean adoptees and found it, 58% of Korean adoptees were women. I had suspected the percentage would be little greater but I'm not surprised that female adoptees would outnumber the men.

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  5. The other major consideration that has not been shown to be false, I think, is that the lower percentages of asian women marrying outside their race is the entirely normal trend, and that the "deviance" factors are more with the men's side. There is one question that come to mind immediately: first, could it be that men are in general more traditionalist and racist than women are? (I know for a fact that there are credible studies out there showing that women in general are more sexually liberal than men are).

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    1. And second, could it be that *asian* men specifically, are much more racist and traditionalist than asian women are, in general?

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    2. The assertion that asian men are "more racist and traditionalist" is probably false. Studies that take a look at racial preference show that men are traditionally less choosy about the race of their partner. This is probably in part because society says that its okay for a man to marry "below" his social class, where it is not acceptable for a woman to do so.

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    3. I wouldn't rely too much on self stated preferences. Women's sexuality, for whatever reasons, is much more complicated than it is for men. Here is an excerpt from the "credible source" that I was thinking of above -- "No matter what their self-proclaimed sexual orientation, [women] showed, on the whole, strong and swift genital arousal when the screen offered men with men, women with women and women with men." Link here: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html?pagewanted=all

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  6. Sorry TK but I think as you get older I see a tendency in your writing to be a little lazy in your thinking. Did you even read the poem you provided? The Korean women I know who are married to American men from my perspective are not racists. They didn't choose to marry outside of their culture because they saw Korean men as emasculated. They married outside of their culture because they were brave and wanted freedom from a rigid and oppressive patriarchal lifestyle. Two of them were disowned by their families and didn't return to Korea for many years. I don't disagree that Asians are stereotyped here but Asian women know better than anyone else these stereotypes are not based in fact. These statistics cannot be attributed to only one cause the emasculation of Asian men it's much more complicated. If I were a Korean women that longed for more freedom and autonomy I would run not walk to the nearest foreign man and throw myself into his arms.

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    1. TT Johns,
      Actually, I think you're missing a big point here. In addition to the emasculation of asian men in America, American society also devalues asian men in another significant way as well - by depicting them as rigid, oppressive, and patriarchal. You're just mentioning another way by which the dominant white culture suppresses asian men. Myself, and most other second generation asian americans I know are not like this, at least not any more than the general white male population. I'm pretty tired of this argument that says we're somehow all rigid, inflexible, and holding onto this traditional fantasy where we own our women. You really think white men are somehow more enlightened than men of other races, especially those who were born and RAISED in America and believe in its values? In fact, asian women in america face significantly much lower levels of domestic violence than ANY OTHER RACE, including whites. The idea that asian men are also effeminate ON TOP of being authoritarian misogynists is complete and utter BS! What you fail to understand, is that white culture depicts asian men as inferior in all regards when compared to whites and the point TK is making is that asian women unconsciously accept these societal norms. Of course women are free to make their own choices. This is America and I believe in personal choice. But, when faced with such staggering differences in out marriage, we have to question why this is happening and at least try to correct some of the ingrained racism that exists in our society.

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    2. TT Johns, I stopped reading after you said, "The Korean women I know who are married to American men...". American men? Last time I checked, my Korean husband who is an American citizen is an American man (Yes, we are two Koreans who are Americans that got married). Before commenting, I'd work on your political correctness first. American doesn't mean White or equate to White. Pathetic.

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    3. Sorry should I have qualified that statement more with white American men. If so then I'll do that now. The Korean women I know are married to white American men I don't know any Korean women married to African American men. And I also realize that my experience is purely anecdotal. Better.

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    4. Did you even read the poem you provided?

      It is one of my favorite poems and I read it several dozen times at this point. I am not sure if you read it very closely though. The poem is about how the superstructure of oppression permeates and creates the substructure of oppression. Your point, on the other hand, makes no reference to the superstructure.

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  7. I don't disagree that white culture thinks of Asian men in all regards as inferior. I get it. What you don't get is that you aren't really talking about what white people are doing are you? No, you are saying that a large portion of Asian American women marry non Asian men because of white indoctrination and I'm saying you can't know that without asking the women. So until we see further study in this area I'm telling you that it's more complicated than simple cultural brainwashing. It may also be more practical from a woman's perspective. If I want to secure the best mate for myself why should I settle for someone that society thinks is inferior? I also do not think you can rule out the role family and culture background might play as a factor either given that even American culture isn't as feminist as it would like to claim. Just my thoughts.

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    1. Pray tell..if it is not socio cultural in nature then what is it? Simply saying it might be something else is not adding much to the discussion. Secondly, why would it be more "practical" for an asian woman to marry white? If anything, there is probably more discrimination from society and more cultural conflict in interracial marriage. It certainly isnt economical as we all know asian men earn the highest income. It also isn't domestic in nature as asian american relationships have the lowest levels of domestic violence.If you can't see how illogical racist attitudes of white culture is primarily to blame..i dont know what else i can say to convince you.

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    2. I don't agree that there is a serious cultural problem with discrimination against Asian women marrying white men as you imply. We also aren't talking about actual statistics like Asian men making more money in reality. We are talking about cultural perceptions. If Asian women think that white men have the upper hand then that would be enough. I also never said that the reasons women might have for choosing white men is logical only that they might find it more practical. Another thing that I don't understand about this discussion is why is it important? For me the entire rant smacks of racism anyway, suggesting that there is something wrong with Asian American women marrying white American men instead. They are in America where a woman can marry whoever she wants with relative freedom. What might be a better question is why don't Asian American men marry more white women or otherwise? I'm sure you would say it's because of the stereotype but this would just be more speculation on your part. Could it be that Asian American men are more willing to succumb to familial pressure? Maybe it's because white American men are more aggressive in their pursuit of these women? Could it be that women in general are more willing to break out of traditional societal roles because ours is more restrictive and less appealing in the first place?

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    3. Let's do a small thought experiment. Let's say 100% of asian females today decide to voluntarily marry only white men. And on the flip side, asian men are unable to find a mate because the society they live in heavily discriminates against them as potential partners. Is this a just or desirable situation? Now, I would vehemently agree that individuals should have the right to choose their partner for whatever reason they see fit. But given this hypothetical situation, would the overall outcome be acceptable on a macro level? Would it not be fair to say that this trend would be highly disturbing and reflective of some gross distortion in society? While my hypothetical is an extreme example, one could argue that our current situation is also approaching distorted levels. If only 5% of asian men are able to outmarry and 25% of asian women outmarry, that would mean 20% of asian men are not able to find long term partners. In fact, we see the consequences of this already as Asian american men are the least likely to marry then any other racial group in the united states.

      The reason why there is such a strong focus on the choices of asian women is because they are the ones who contribute directly to this outcome along with white women. In American society, it is the WOMAN who essentially chooses the one who they will decide to mate with. Men, at the risk of over generalization, will partner with the most attractive woman who will accept them. When you ask "why don't Asian American men marry more white women or otherwise" is a good question and it relates directly to the reason why asian women seem to have such an urge to marry outside of their race. Asian women and white women from an early age are inundated with cultural messages in the media that portray asian men as thugs, martial artists, nerds, socially inept, weak, etc. These cultural messages are pervasive and consistent and are the primary reason why both asian women and white women discriminate against asian men.

      As an asian american man, I have the same conflicting thoughts as Pete. I am pretty Americanized myself and I believe in the idea of individualism, personal freedom, and the pursuit of one's own happiness. I wouldn't dream of trying to control or criticize a woman's choice in who she decides to marry. Despite that, I am still troubled by what is happening to asian americans today. I am troubled that American culture is so biased against asian men that such a significant number of asian women are unconsciously choose to outmarry. I see both sides of the coin, and thus conflicted about what should be done, if there is anything that be done at all.

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    4. Earlier it was suggested that Korean adoptees figured in these numbers and I read that 58% of Korean adoptees were female. If Asian American women outnumbered Asian American males by a significant enough percentage this would also skew the figures. I also read the article suggested by Jaci from the NY Times that gave figures Asian/Asian marriages have increased by 10% and suggested this was a trend. I have some issues with the figures anyway, do they include Asian Americans of mixed race? I'm not only concerned with the pat answer that the numbers reflect racism I'm also wondering about the figures themselves. I just don't see these kind of issues as being answered quite so simply.

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    6. "So until we see further study in this area I'm telling you that it's more complicated than simple cultural brainwashing."

      I agree with this sentiment, but......

      Often in the US, major studies pretty much exclude Asians and focus on black, white and Hispanics. I have even seen studies on school bullying which have excluded the Asian experience - strange because in other studies, up to 70% of Asian children report being harassed and bullied. So, the fact that there seems to be so little academic inquiry into the Asian experience may well itself be a manifestation of cultural marginalization.

      That aside, I think that it is reasonable to consider that the internalization of cultural attitudes and stereotypes may be a significant factor in the high out marriage rates of East Asian women.

      Compare, for instance, out-marriage amongst Indian-Americans; Indian culture has been shown to be highly repressive of women, and chauvinistic attitudes are rife. Yet, we don't see a similar phenomenon of Indian women trying to "escape" this repression through out-marriage, as some have suggested East Asian women are doing.

      One difference between the two groups that I can think of is that whereas there is a cultural tradition (that I feel may be ingrained) of dehumanizing East Asians that continues even to this day (including sexually demeaning stereotypes and mockery of Asian men, and cultural invisibility), no such tradition exists in the US for Asian Indians.

      Conversely, there is no tradition of hyper-sexualizing Indian women, but the tradition of sexualizing East Asian women could almost be said to be a genre in its own right in US culture. Even East Asian women who date exclusively white men complain about this tradition.

      So it could be that some East Asians feel that to "marry-out" (that is marrying white people) is the cultural expectation, in a way that is not culturally expected of Indian women even though the circumstances for both groups may be similar.

      Unless Indian women are less empowered or intelligent than East Asian women - and I see no reason why they should or would be - they should be marrying out at the same rates as East Asian women if their cultures of origin were to blame for their choices.

      I think that these are good reasons to think that America's cultural attitudes towards East Asians play a significant role in shaping choices.

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    7. That Asian women have a greater tendency to marry outside of their race (even if equal numbers of in-race males are available), that Asian women are found to be especially attractive to white males (the fetishism hypothesis), that Asian men are viewed to be the least attractive -- out of all of these hypotheses the only one that seems to have some real evidence backing it is the last one. According to the study linked below, BOTH asian women and asian men were found to be the least attractive out of all racial groups. And if we assume that the "identity" equation has to hold true ( assume 10 asian women 10 asian men, if 8 of these men marry 8 other asian women, then the percentage of in-race marriage HAS to be the same for both men and women), then it's hard to see how they can be significantly different simply from a theoretical perspective.

      http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/emir.kamenica/documents/racialpreferences.pdf

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    8. JW

      Of course in casual dating, physical attractiveness may be of higher significance, but when people are considering a life partner, my guess is that attractiveness might often be weighed against more substantial qualities like, responsibility, stability, financial prospects, emotional maturity, and so on.

      Plus, I believe that American born Asian males marry out at a very high rate - something like one third - that is second only to Asian women's out-marriage rates. It is possible or likely that American born Asian men date out more than they marry out. So I don't really buy the attractiveness argument as an explanation for the disparity.

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    9. Not sure what you're arguing...one of the main points that I made was that the disparity is not really a disparity that has to be explained by anything cultural cause such as attractiveness or emasculation. It's probably because we're not dealing with the same population totals. Per the US census data in 2010, there are significantly more Asian women out there vs Asian men when we look at sheer population count.

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    10. JW

      I'm saying that cultural factors cannot be ruled out as a contributing factor to the disparity. I cannot access census data to verify that the gender ratio in Asian-America favours women, but I think that raw population stats cannot really shed light on the issue without filtering out children, and others outside of the marriage pool (like elderly women who tend to outlive their spouses), and the 4.5% or so who identify as LGBT.

      At the same time, I agree that demographics may be a factor, but I don't see how that rules out cultural factors such as negative stereotyping, and unbalanced cultural visibility and representation, or hyper-sexualization of East Asian women.

      At the very least, these factors might have the effect of normalizing pairings of Asian women and white men (not in itself a negative thing), whilst doing the opposite for Asian male/white women pairings.

      But the fact that the stats are skewed in favour of white men is also interesting - if it was simply a population totals factor, and cultural attitudes (both of mainstream America and Asians themselves) played no role, then surely we would see Asian women marrying, let's say, black men at a more proportional rate, perhaps even marrying black men at a roughly equivalent rate to that of white women. But I don't think this is the case.

      If you take all of these considerations into account plus, personal accounts of various Asian women from time to time who themselves may cite cultural factors as an implicit aspect of their choices, then I think it is a premature to dismiss cultural factors as a potential influence.

      Plus, the Indian American demographic is a good control population for understanding the possible effects of cultural factors on the subject. If (when the government goes back to work) the census shows that there are also more Indian women than men, and we know that Indian men marry out at a higher rate than Indian women, and we also take into consideration similarities in apparent sexist cultural repressiveness of women, that lends credence to the idea that cultural factors are playing a role in East Asian women's choices. Indian-Americans simply haven't come under the same kind cultural stereotyped spotlight as East Asians.

      Furthermore, I believe that America's gender ratio favors women - that is, there are more women than men. Unless this imbalance is caused entirely by the Asian-American community, then there has to be other communities where the women outnumber the men. This in turn suggests that there should other communities where the women are marrying out at a higher rate than the men, but I don't believe this is the case. Only Asian women marry out at a higher rate than their men, which should not be the case if population totals were the sole explanation.

      I will also want to say that I think Asian-Americans spend way too much time talking about this subject, often at the expense of highlighting other more serious issues - like the 70% or so of Asian kids who experience bullying in America's schools. Yet, having said that, the phenomenon is interesting because if it turns out to be true that simple population totals do not explain the disparity, then it is extremely unusual that so many women might choose spouses outside of their own race and community. It just is.

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    11. But the asian indian comparison DOES give us empirical reason to believe that population count is fundamentally what's at issue here. If you go to the asian nation site that TK links to you'll see that Asian Indians are the only ones with approx equal counts for married men and women. And lo and behold, their male and female in race marriage rates are about equal...and let me repeat- if asian women are marrying OUT that has to mean that asian men are NOT marrying IN, which means a significant disparity can occur only if population counts are significantly different. (And that's the last time I will repeat that)

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    12. Ben: "Compare, for instance, out-marriage amongst Indian-Americans; Indian culture has been shown to be highly repressive of women, and chauvinistic attitudes are rife. Yet, we don't see a similar phenomenon of Indian women trying to "escape" this repression through out-marriage, as some have suggested East Asian women are doing."

      Or among Middle Eastern cultures.

      Patriarchy and misogyny are old hackneyed rationalizations by many Asian women and their defenders but it all crumbles under scrutiny, as we can see.

      "One difference between the two groups that I can think of is that whereas there is a cultural tradition (that I feel may be ingrained) of dehumanizing East Asians that continues even to this day (including sexually demeaning stereotypes and mockery of Asian men, and cultural invisibility), no such tradition exists in the US for Asian Indians."

      I suspect that the "dehumanization" of Asian men has gone on sometime since WWII.

      "Conversely, there is no tradition of hyper-sexualizing Indian women, but the tradition of sexualizing East Asian women could almost be said to be a genre in its own right in US culture. Even East Asian women who date exclusively white men complain about this tradition."

      Asian women who only date nonAsian men revel in it. To complain, you must be a little aware. And to be a little aware means neither hating yourself or your own.

      "I think that these are good reasons to think that America's cultural attitudes towards East Asians play a significant role in shaping choices."

      True, there are "multiple moving parts" at play.

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    13. JW

      I can't agree that you have come anywhere near to establishing that sex ratios are significantly skewed or that this can be the only reason for high imbalance in out-marriage rates. None of that precludes culture as a significant factor.

      Indian out-marriage rates follow the pattern of every other group - the men in any given community marry-out at a moderately higher rate than the women, save black men who marry out at a significantly higher rate. Only East Asian women marry out significantly higher rates than their men.

      Without establishing that there is, indeed, a significant imbalance in gender ratios, citing it as the most significant cause is premature - and, again - this does not preclude cultural factors as a major contributing factor.

      Plus, population counts does not explain why out-marriage for Asian women is almost exclusively with white men - a significant cultural influence offers a more compelling explanation than mere population counts. Furthermore, the sex-ratio of the US favours women - by about 5-6 million - unless you are claiming that this imbalance is caused by the Asian-American community (which would be ridiculous), then it follows that (based on population counts alone), there must be some other ethnic group somewhere in the US where the the women marry out at a higher rate than the men. This is not the case - population counts as a sole explanation simply fail.

      Again, I don't deny that population dynamics may play a role, as does simple availability due to geographical location, I'm just not convinced that it is the sole factor or even the most significant. If we are silly enough to remove personal testimonies from the equation, then sure, simple stats tell us want we want to hear, but it doesn't lend itself to a meaningful enquiry to ignore personal testimonies of Asian women who explicitly cite cultural influences as a factor in shaping their partner choices.

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    14. I quote some asian men vs women census numbers below for ny cali nj and texas, you are welcome to go to the census proxy site that I mention and count for the entire country if you like but unfortunately u have to sum up state by state. As for asian women marrying whites that is probably mainly because white men have higher income higher geographical availability etc which have nothing to do with culture. BUT that's besides the point which is that population count is the most likely factor as to why asian men and women in race marriage rates differ.

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  8. A lot of intellectual thinking going on here. But, having lived in Korea for two years, I find the poem to be much more accurate than the post. I don't think racism has anything to do with the poem. Personally, I have always thought Asian men were much more attractive than any others. However, I would have never married one. The Korean women that I knew were all married to Korean men, and their treatment by them was horrible. One woman miscarried as a result of the overwork she suffered preparing for a feast. She also didn't care if he got a "business woman" as long as, he didn't touch her. Hmmm, wonder why she didn't want him to touch her. Actor Bruce Lee was brutally racist against the Vietnamese wife of a film maker, because "You can't trust Asian women." To a large degree, that stereotype is true. Asian women manipulate to get what they want. Hmmm, wonder why that is.....um maybe because that's the only way to get anything at all. I was appalled at the way they were treated, and felt deep sadness. White and black women put up with a lot from their men, but I don't think anyone goes to the level of using and devaluing their women as an overwhelming number of Asians do. What the poet was talking about was not racism but admitting his own hypocrisy. I don't hate Asians, I have Asian blood and Asian friends, and I wouldn't give anything for the time I spent in Korea. But, I what I saw made me hurt for women.

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    1. Funny you should mention manipulation. I have a friend that is married to a Turkish women and they clash all the time over her manipulative behavior. It upsets him that she even after years of marriage still seems to feel the need to use tactics in order to get what she wants. What's kept them together is that he realizes where this behavior originates and understands that it's a hard habit for her to break.

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  9. I think it’s always necessary to point out in this discussion that even though interracial marriages are increasing in the U.S., the opposite is true among Asian Americans. A significantly higher percentage of Asian Americans are marrying other Asian Americans or Asians than in the past few decades according to last year’s widely discussed (at least within the AsAm community) NY Times article, “For Asian American Couples, a Tie That Binds.”

    I’ve personally witnessed it as well. I’m a Korean American guy who grew up in So Cal, completely immersed in that “Asian Bubble” - in school, church, social gatherings, etc. What that NY Times article talks about was also true for us Asians in high school and college. The majority of us dated only or mostly other Asians and for pretty much the same reasons given in that piece. I have relatives and close friends who are married now and with kids, all of whom are in Asian/Asian couples. We discussed that article when it came out last year. According to them, the numbers weren’t a surprise because they see it in their social circle every day. At their daycare, for example, there is a significantly higher percentage of Asian/Asian couples than there are Asian/White couples – pretty close to 8/2. And these are 1.5 or 2.0 generation Asians and not those who recently immigrated. Now I’m not saying this to try to piss off people or rub this in their faces (because I read several comments online last year by those in White/Asian relationships who seemed threatened by that article). But you have to consider this aspect of the discussion when considering the interracial dating gap between Asian men and Asian women. The trend is definitely changing, the reasons for which I think would make a really interesting article here on AAK.

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    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    2. The article is short but I notice that it calls out a lot about what I was saying and something else I suspected. Asian women have been marrying non Asian men because the pool of Asian males is smaller and many of them were rejecting traditional Asian gender roles.

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  10. OK. I'm beginning to think that this entire post is just flat out baloney. Hear me out. I first asked myself, if we assume there are 10 Korean women and 10 Korean men, and 8 Korean men married Korean women, then that means the percentage of Korean men and Korean women should be THE SAME! But it's not, according to the source cited in the article. 90 percent of Korean men marry Korean women, but only 68 percent of Korean women marry Korean men. Do you know why? BECAUSE THE POPULATION OF KOREAN WOMEN ACCORDING TO THE SOURCE IS ABOUT 100 THOUSAND MORE!! The only Asian Americans where the Men and Women populations are about equal are for Asian Indians, and guess what? They marry into their own race at the same rate.

    This is not to deny that emasculation of Asian males in American mainstream culture is not real. HOWEVER, it does not necessarily follow that that problem will have a significant effect on who people decide to marry. That is a causation effect that has to be specifically proven through empirical research. So everybody just chill the fuck out, in my humble opinion.

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    1. Well, ok I see now that it is referring to the population of married men and married women...and for whatever reason there are less Korean married men vs Korean women overall. But still, don't you have to compare the same populations of married men and women to be able infer that a interracial marriage happens at a higher rate among women? And are you going to tell me, on mere speculation, that the reason for the smaller overall number of married men is because due to cultural emasculation they couldn't find someone to marry?

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    2. Here's some more relevant data -- According to 2010 census, if we just look at New York, New Jersey, Texas, and California, Asian male population came out to 3804541 and Asian women came out to 4167032, for a difference of 362491. For whatever reason, there flat out appears to be significantly more Asian women than there are Asian men, which would mean that the data analysis of the source for this post is bogus. (Please do me a favor and correct me if I'm wrong. I'd be happy to admit it). Since census website is currenly SHUT DOWN BECAUSE OF FUCKING MORONS AT GOP, I used this web site: http://census.ire.org/


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    3. Thank you JW for looking this up I was lazy. In my earlier post I suggested that the figures were concerning because we didn't know how many Asian women or men, or even if these numbers include mixed race Asian Americans. I also have a difficult time with using raw numbers to reflect cultural attitudes. I know it's done all the time even when we talk about racism in America. My main problem with using racism as the ultimate answer is that we are not talking about white attitudes toward Asians we are discussing Asian American attitudes toward themselves. The premise behind suggesting that Asian women are biased against their own race because they've been influenced more by white cultural indoctrination than Asian men just doesn't sit well with me. From my way of thinking Asian women know more about what it is to be an Asian man than white women do so what is it you're trying to say here? Could it be that women in general are more inclined to believe bullshit than men? What is this reasoning? I think the reasoning is flawed and not based on anything at all but personal observation and the authors own insecurities.

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  11. As a response to all of the stereotypes about Asian men being rigid and conservative mentioned above:

    I'm a caucasian woman living in Seoul with a Korean man, to make this clear first. Since I have no connection with the USA at all, I am not going to talk about the American racist case, I'm only going to mention my own witnessing.

    Rigidness and such of Korean men differs by age - the new generations are more liberal than the elderly ones. I can see this by the way my colleagues at university are talking and behaving, and well, my boyfriend's not such a tyran either (my, I wouldn't get myself with someone who'd give me no freedom at the first place!). The times they are achanging, it's not cool to be conservative, people do like changes afterall.
    That's about the present situation. Now, something for all of you who might want to search for sources in history. I haven't researched enough about that, I admit, but before Confucianism was introduced into Korea from China, I've heard from Korean people, the Korean society was kinda liberal for its times and that women were, maybe not literally on power, but they did have strenght and all. I don't want to put the blame neither on Confucianism nor on China, as I might sound, I'm just providing facts.

    This might not explain statistics about marriages, on the opposite, it makes things even more confusing, but it is surely something worth of keeping in mind.

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  12. Wow, The Korean has really jumped the shark here. It would be so easy to compare the ratio of Korean men and Korean women who marry white folk in Korea, where the latter are minorities themselves and experience discrimination daily, to completely debunk his argument here. I suggest you read The Kama Sutra if you really want a deeper, and less historically contingent, understanding of this phenomenon.

    It must be quite exhausting to constantly interpret the world through a racial and self-consciously cultural framework, which is to say, the prisonhouse of identity politics. I dare say it might even be a turn-off for more than a few of the ladies!

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  13. There is some truth that Asian-American are seen not as assertive. I know this from my second war service in Iraq between 2004-2005. For most of my service, I was thought not having enough force to deal with Iraqi Men. I kept a modest demeanor which people viewed as weak. Then there were a few incidents. My white platoon leader was shocked what happened next. As the squad leader, I got very tough without disrespecting Iraqis. My action was swift and hard. My white platoon sergeant said to me that he couldn't believe I had it in me. He said that Asian Guys are not normally as assertive.

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  14. The reason why there are more marriages between Asian American women and white men then Asian American men and white women is very simple. All you have to do is study sociology.

    According to their social status rankings, white men tops the social pyramid. Slightly below stands the white woman. Then the Asian man, then the Asian woman, then the African American man, then the African American woman. So basically, African American women are at the very bottom of the social pyramid.

    Now please do not call me a racist because I AM JUST THE MESSENGER. I know it is not fair, and I know it is racist, and I know it is plain wrong, but this is the world according to sociology.

    Why do Asian American men rank lower than whites? Not sure. My guess would be they did not come to America and kill the natives or buy enough slaves to rip the benefits of a colonizer status later on. This is just my guess.

    So if we follow the social pyramid rankings, and remember that women from all social backgrounds tend to marry up and men tend to marry down, here you have it - socially acceptable marriages.

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  15. Now, how are Asian men are perceived on the whole? Yes, most women tend to think that most Asian men are domineering since they grew up in a patriarchal society which in turn takes its roots not in Confucianism but in agricultural labor division.

    If a society is deeply rooted in agricultural practices, where man brings the daily.... bread, rice, mung beans - whatever, a woman's role automatically is reduced to that of a sub-servant homemaker. Whether I am deeply disturbed about this or not is irrelevant since this is the way it is and we cannot really change the situation unless the industrial revolution brings more women into the workforce.

    Now, can Asian men change that view? Yes, of course. But it is going to be hard. According to Naomi Wolf, who wrote "Vagina", the only way to make a woman want sex is to be nice to her, talk to her and to help her around the house. That's it. No diamond rings, no expensive gifts, just be nice to her and do some household chores. Isn't it easy?

    So if Asian men want to be hot commodity, they might want to follow those simple rules.

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  16. You wonder why?
    I'm pretty sure that ever woman knows why they choose their mate, which is their perogative. Why don't you ask them?
    Maybe a bad plug, but some of my comments here (http://wangjangnim.com/korean-mums) might be applicable.

    I still don't know why my Intelligent, highly educated, too good for me, wife married me, but I am happy she did. Although if I mention that she is Korean, she gets angry with me. So, eventhough my wife was born in Korea, has the Korean nationality, she feels nothing in common with Korea. Because Korean man treat her like shit.

    We might refer here to the sins of the father and such, but the image Korean man portray will take at least a generation to clean up.

    I do have to relate one experience I had during my MBA. It was at the end of the term, and people decided to go to Hongdae to go to some establishment. I was already married for 4 years at that time. My wife, feeling slightly uncomfortable, asked me to assist her to the toilet, to which I obliged. Waiting around, I have a Korean man walk up to me telling me "I'm keeping my eye on you?". I ask "What do you mean?", "Don't take any Korean girls out!", to which I showed him my ringfinger and told him he was too late. I can go on, on similar events that have transpired, but the central tennent remains, why would a korean man say that to a european man? So please. Maybe you should stop blaming woman for taking a mate they think is better, but you should blame your forebearers for creating such a bad image to begin with, and make moves to show people, one-on-one, that they are wrong.

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  17. Thanks for sharing the wonderful poem, TK. It was truly moving.

    I think the discrepancy in the rate of Asian-American men marrying whites and Asian-American women marrying whites can be attributed to several factors:
    (1) There are just more Asian woman than men in the US.
    (2) Generally, parents want their Asian sons to marry an Asian girl but don't care as much that their daughters marry white men. It has to do with carrying on the family name and bloodline. They want a daughter-in-law who can cut fruit on a nice serving tray after dinner. They don't expect the same from a son-in-law -- so long as he is well educated, successful and treats the daughter nicely, it's all good.
    (3) When Asian daughters are not married by the time they are 30, parents pressure them to marry anyone - outside the race is fine. Asian men can be 40 and still marry 30 year Asian women. It basically boils down to numbers and who is available.
    (4) Unless the Asian woman surrounds herself with just Asians, the chances are that she will encounter far greater number of white men than Asian men. When 9 white men ask you out vs. 1 Asian man, the chances are you will end up dating a white men. Asian men, on the other hand, can surround himself with white friends but many of them (more than Asian women, anyway) will still marry Asian women. This goes back to parents drilling into their heads from puberty that they have to marry Asian women and have Asian babies. I don't know how many twinkie Korean guys I know who ended up marrying a Korean woman even though they never dated Korean women before. But in many cases, Korean women with white friends will marry white men because they weren't brought up being badgered about marrying a Korean man.

    It has less to do with racism than indoctrination.

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  18. Another side not discussed is "Why do so many caucasian man marry so many Asian woman?" Just by asking this simple question it is obvious that the whole discussion is far too complex. So your approach of making other people the guilty party, and reducing it to a childish pointing of the finger really doesn't help furthering your cause. What might help is actually to act like a confident man, and swoop the lady of your dreams of her feet.

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    1. Easy to say when you're not the group that's being discriminated. Of course, individual behavior can often trump stereotypes if one is diligent and forward enough to dispel them. However, should we really expect every single asian man to be an alpha male? Telling the discriminated males to just "do better" is a pretty lazy analysis on your part.

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    2. Not really.
      It is my experience that people like to make up excuses, and that they are being discriminated against, rather than go in and make it change. It's just like Foreign teachers all of a sudden getting the racist treatment in Korea, never having experienced it before. First thing they do is whine about it.

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  19. "So your approach of making other people the guilty party, and reducing it to a childish pointing of the finger really doesn't help furthering your cause."

    Well, what else is an ardent ethnonationalist supposed to do?

    I recently played a dating game with about a hundred of my Korean university students. Half of the time, one female student had to choose among four men, whom she couldn't see. When the girls would ask the boys their hobbies, they would usually say "computer games" or "sports." After a few rounds of this, I asked how many women in the class liked computer games or sports themselves, and none did. I then suggested that the men try to do a better job of tailoring their answers to the preferences of the women, if they wanted to be picked. Nevertheless, at least half of them kept saying "computer games" or "sports" when asked what they liked to do in their free time. Obviously, not many of the women were terribly excited by these answers. Later on, one girl was asked what type of guy she liked, and she said, "I like older guys." What I think she meant was that she preferred men over boys. Makes sense, doesn't it?

    Anyone who is familiar with human nature will know that there are dozens of different factors that go into why one group of people might like another group. Suggesting that it all boils down to one or two reasons merely indicates that the speaker is not yet worldly enough to really understand the dating, or mating, game.

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  20. From Noe www.rok-on.net

    I always thought that since they (these Asian women in particular) are living in America, they have a higher chance of meeting someone from America?

    I mean if you look at Asia, how many Asian women are married to Asian men, amirite? ㅋㅋ

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  21. Isn't this over looking a simple statistical explanation? Asians are something like 4-6% of the population, whites are still something like 60%. So, unless Asians are living in an extremely segregated communities (which in some cases they are) or actively using race to determine who to marry, they should be marrying outside their race in huge numbers, all things being equal when it comes to love. So, unless you're arguing for racial purity, and I know you're not, the fact so few Asian men are marrying outside their race is the stat that actually needs to be looked at and addressed. Or, to put it another way, why so many Asians (or any other racial group, for that matter) marry inside their race if the aim is a color blind society.

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    1. This is actually pretty easy to explain. One, asian populations are extremely segregated into major metropolitan and suburban areas. So while the overall population may only be 4-6%, the apparent population in a specific town or city may approach several fold that. Many zip codes in California for example have extremely high numbers of asians. Secondly, like a previous poster said, only asian women outmarry at higher rates than males of the same race. So then why don't we the same trends in the females of other racial groups? Blacks and latinos for example?

      Bottom line, a simple statistical explanation is not sufficient to explain this phenomenon.

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    2. I think I muddled the point I was trying to make which is that this question needs to be turned on its head. Given the statistics and demographic make up of America, the question needs to be why so few marry outside their race (this applies to all races). In other words the real issue is why we all stick to our own races so much when it comes to marriage. Groups that are marrying outside their race should not have to answer for anything because odds are, if race wasn't a factor, that's what would be happening.

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  22. Asian women gain many advantages from having long term / sexual relations non-Asian men, which are totally out of anyone's control and are purely driven by instinct. First: it's been shown in anthropological studies that women tend to be more sexually aroused to those partners who are the most genetically different. I'm not sure for men, but for women there is a well known study having to do with men's sweat that you can reference regarding this. Basically women can be aroused by the SMELL men who are more genetically different. Under this scenario, which plays itself out in Asia a thousand times a day, a average built/ looking but poor, middle of the road Caucasian guy gains an unfair advantage over a similarly physically endowed but more well-healed Asian guy based on genetics alone. Second, women around the world are interested in a particular male partner for both short term sexual experience and long term relationships based around status, not looks in the end. Many of these status markers are related to height, color of skin and perceived value in society. Here is where the emphasis, especially in Korea, on white skin puts white dudes at an unfair advantage again. . Third: novelty factor. It's just more exciting and less boring getting to know someone who is totally different. This is one category where Asian men and non-Asian women could compete equally, save for the previous genetic advantages, because frankly I think lot of white girls are interested in Asian guys from what I've heard. Lastly, there is the chauvanism/traditional culture factor for despite Asian-Americans having "westernized" attitudes unless there were no Asian families around when you're growing up, the traditional mind-set comes into play when marriage is a factor and Asian children by a large come from families that consider their daughters less valuable to the family. Given a choice between being seen as a lesser by a traditional family, (even with an Asian partner who believes otherwise), and going over to the other side, many professional Asian-American women who have independent earning ability choose the Other.

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  23. Comment from Woofy via email:

    Hey TK,

    First time poster here and I just want to say I really enjoy reading this blog. As a Korean American, I feel like I learn something new every time I read one of your posts, please keep this up amid your busy schedule, thank you.

    Normally I don’t post because frankly I’m so damn tired after a day’s work and helping my wife with our 2 baby girls. Also, I guess I don’t want to get into any long drawn out flame wars with someone who might disagree with an opinion of mine, because I have no interest in expending the time or emotional energy.

    I felt compelled to speak out on this topic though. As a Korean American man who grew up in the United States, in a primarily white community, I wanted to share some of my experiences. I think this might be useful because “you truly don’t know another’s point of view until you have walked a little in their shoes”. Let me regress a little bit, to the posters like TT Johns above, I think your bright and mean well what you say even though I disagree with you on many things on this topic, because I understand this is from your world view from your life experiences, and I really don’t think your part of that white male crowd that posts to denigrate asian males just to boost their fragile egos or try to take collective credit for just being part of the white race. I believe white people in general don’t have the experience or understanding of how it feels to be part of a racial minority (unless of course you’re an expat living a foreign country, even then you get some advantages just because your white). They expect and usually receive the full fairness of society, the full benefits of legal protection from the law, and also things like never having to worry about being pulled over for a DWB(driving while black, or now in Southern California, DWA – driving while asian male), never having to feel you have be substantially better than your competitors to get a job or entrance into college because of your race(Asians have to score a substantial higher SAT/ACT score comparatively to the other races) and finally having to never have your race be a substantial disadvantage in finding a mate, even if they are of your own race! (continued)

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    1. (continued)

      What TK said in his post is so true “Rather than broadly fighting oppression in every form, our tendency is to perpetuate a smaller version of it, as if to compensate for our misery by inflicting more misery on those lower in the chain.” This is so true from what I have seen and from what I have experienced in my life. I think many Asian Americans when faced with the many forms of racism in their lives, they tend to internalize it and bear misery on themselves and others through self-hatred, manifesting in being ashamed of whom they are and through desperate acts to gain white approval in order to assimilate better with the dominate white society. I myself recall going through this cycle of self-hatred and experiencing subconscious “wanting to be more white” feelings when I was growing up. After some introspection I believe it was my reaction to being a recipient of racism and the negative stigma of being an Asian American male in society. I “grew up” in the 80’s and 90’s so it might have been a little rougher back then, but I can’t forget the many instances where I felt hated by others just because of who I was. Since there were no positive asian faces in television or movies to compare then, except asian male “nerds” or “gooks(especially in Chuck Norris movies)”, one of my nicknames in high school was “donger”(the asian nerd, “Long Duck Dong” from the movie 16 candles) even though I didn’t have the slightest resemblance to this character, I have always been well built, athletic and pretty decent looking(some modeling on the side), but the white kids who teased me had no other cultural references to use against me. And it wasn’t because asian people weren’t trying to break into the industry. My asian friend who looks like a tv leading man with the charisma to boot, basically quit trying to be actor after being told for a couple of years that: he wasn’t “asian enough”(code: he was too good looking, too tall, too articulate to fit the gook, nerd and kung fighting villian roles). That’s why asian guys like Ken Jeong(movie hangover) get plenty of roles. He stated flatly that Hollywood producers will probably be willing to give away a million bucks before they ever think about casting a asian dude in a romantic lead with a white woman. So sad but true. But why is this? Expanding on this, I have been on the receiving end of many “back handed” compliments in my life that is based on racist thinking, like “wow, you speak such good english for an asian(I grew up the United States, am American), “your tall for an asian guy”, just imagine if I would have replied something just as ridiculous like “wow, your thin for a white person”. I recall my first experience with an Asian American female self hater at a high school party, who being the only other asian in the place, I took a natural interest in and wanted to be friendly, so when I approached her, she immediately stood up and shouted that she hated asian guys while strolling back to her white male group posse. I admit that ruined my entire evening, naively wondering that whole night of why this person hated me even though she didn’t know me and also because she was asian too! But looking back now more mature, I can only feel pity instead of anger toward someone like that person, because I can’t imagine some of the crap or racism she must have experienced to have built up hatred like that in her heart. As an example, I remember my wonderful sister whom after being called “FOB” in school burst into tears and yelling afterward that she hated me Asian. My point being is that white people have a hard time understanding the cumulate effects of racism and how it affects relationships within and outside the racial group. (continued)

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    2. (continued)
      I read somewhere about 5 years ago(?) that in New York City, an Asian American man had to make close to $24,000 more a year than a white guy to date an asian woman. Just to date someone of their race! I can’t imagine any other group of people experiencing or facing something like this. My little group of Asian American male friends never really don’t about this topic too much because it is a little embarrassing and painful for us and also we have a lot better things to talk about. But when this topic pops up we can without even speaking just look at each other and just know we have many similar experiences and feelings regarding this. As the poster Stephen X mentioned in an earlier post, Asian American males usually make more money, usually more educated, culturally more attuned and aren’t patriarchal repressive like we’re stereotyped, but still have to carry around these negative stigmas around our necks. But why is this continuing? What can we do to change this? Let’s forget race ask ourselves aren’t we all human beings that should be allowed respect and dignity? This is a very big issue but glad that there more open candid discussions like these.

      Wow I know a lot for a first time poster, thank you for letting me express myself. Sorry TT Johns for using you as an example, I respect your differing views and meant no disrespect^^.

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    3. Woofy, it is peculiar that you quote the lovely poem but the rest of your post is a sob story about the plight of Asian men in the US (and how self hating Asian women hate her fellow Asian men) rather than a reflection on how such oppression may perpetuate itself in the form of misogyny. If you really want to know why so many Asian women choose to marry outside of their race, you really need to step outside of your self-absorbed, ethnocentric box. I say this to all Asian men here who feel oppressed and feel that Asian women have forsaken them for a "better life"; I am not just targeting you.

      Has it occurred to any of you that women are just more open-minded? Open-minded about race? Open-minded about love? Open-minded about culture, bloodline and lineage? It could be that Asian women are more likely to be assimilated into the white culture, not because she hates being Asian but because she doesn't necessarily feel the need to surround herself with people from her ethnicity. After all, if she was born here in the US, you would think that assimilation is what is normal, not something deviant. But perhaps Asian men segregate themselves due to some chip on the shoulder that is so evident in so many of these posts. They like being with fellow Asians because it is their "territory", their comfort zone, a place where they have an equal chance of being an alpha male because they are all Asian. Well, if you are going to surround yourself with Asians, then chances are that you will marry an Asian. Not so for many Asian women who don't feel the need to feel territorial or alpha anything so they end up surrounding themselves with the general population in the US.

      Or perhaps some introspection is in order for Korean males. It is common knowledge among my Asian women friends that white guys treat women as equals, that Chinese and Jewish guys treat women even better than equals, Japanese men are coming around, and at the bottom of the list are Korean men/Indian men/black men/Hispanic men. There is misogyny in every culture but it seems that some cultures value women more than others. Korea isn't one of them. Rarely have I seen a Korean man hold open a coat for a woman, open a car door for a woman unless it is in an initial dating phase, or other niceties women appreciate. Perhaps many of us grew up with our fathers golfing while our moms worked in stores. Or saw ahjuhshees just devoured their meals during church festivities while women slaved away cooking and cleaning. Or witnessed all the ahjushees who dismissed a woman's opinions just because it was a woman's opinion and talked down to her. Men smoking in public? That is ok. Women smoking in public? That is not ok. Is anyone seriously arguing that Korean culture is not biased in favor of men, more so than many other cultures? You can argue that the younger generation of Korean-American men are much better than these misogynistic ahjuhshees; probably so but they still have a long way to go.

      Or it could be that mommy and daddy badger their son about bringing home a nice Korean wife who can cook and bear sons but tell their daughter, especially one over 30 years old, that even white guys are ok so long as he is successful, loyal and nice. I know a handful of Korean guys who only dated white women before who ended up marrying a Korean girl because it was something they knew they had to do. The ones who refused were excommunicated by their parents.

      According to your logic, an Asian woman would choose a white guy because of "cumulative effects of racism." Has it occurred to you that an Asian woman only dating an Asian guy could be racism too? Isn't she then being racist against whites? You are seeing racial boundaries where other more enlightened people may not see them.

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    4. Helen: "Has it occurred to any of you that women are just more open-minded? Open-minded about race? Open-minded about love?"

      When it comes to a particular segment of the Asian female population, they are wont to be open minded about every race except Asian.

      "It could be that Asian women are more likely to be assimilated into the white culture, not because she hates being Asian but because she doesn't necessarily feel the need to surround herself with people from her ethnicity."

      If this were true, then it would be a positive thing. But assimilation accompanied by disdain for her own kind is not a positive thing.

      "at the bottom of the list are Korean men/Indian men/black men/Hispanic men."

      Many of these same open-minded women prefer Indian/Arab/Black/Hispanic guys over an Asian guy.

      So the theory fails to hold.

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    5. Helen Melon, I wrote a long response to your (all-too-common) diatribe against Asian men, especially Korean men, but I decided to erase it because my response was as hackneyed as pretty much every point you made in your post (blunt, but true). I do agree with you about one thing though: I'm so fucking sick of the victim mentality as well.

      If I had it my way, this "White guy/Asian girl" topic would be relegated to the trash heap forever. It's a topic that's torn apart the Asian American community for way too fucking long. Seriously. That's why I referenced the NY Times article above. You know what more Asian guys marrying more Asian girls means? No, it doesn't mean that were being less open minded about love or race. It means we've stopped calling each other "self-haters" or "sexist pigs" (at least more of us). It means more Asian men and more Asian women are beginning to respect one another instead of trying to tear the other apart like what has been happening for the past thirty years or however long this topic has been dragging on. Seriously, aren't people sick of this yet?

      And things will get better like they have been steadily. Absolutely no doubt about it. All the advice that people have been giving to Asian guys about how to improve ourselves... fuck that. We're doing great. Just keep doing what we've been doing. We're the most educated, we make as much as or more than white guys, even with all of the obstacles placed in front of us, and we're continually gaining more economic, political, and cultural power... Our families are the happiest and most optimistic. And for every accusation that we're terrible husbands or fathers, I bet you know ten examples of Asian men who are loving, understanding, and supportive of their families. Just keep doing what we've been doing. "We've been emasculated"??? Fuck that. They've TRIED to emasculate us, but they haven't succeeded. Look at how far we've come. That takes strength to accomplish what we have.

      And since this will most likely be my last post in this thread, fwiw, to all the White guy/ Asian girl couples, I wish you guys a lifetime of happiness. I really do.

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    6. Further comment from Woofy:

      Helon Melon,

      always enjoyed reading your comments in the past, but would have really appreciated it if you left out comments like "self-absorbed ethnocentric box" in reference to my comments about some of past painful experiences. Believe me I don't sit around talking much about my "sob stories" or playing victim like you would like to depict me. Actually this was my first time sharing some of these ancedotes to anyone. And it wasn't easy for me to rehash these. I really feeling blessed and at peace in my life with my wonderful korean wife and beautiful daughters at the present, I have absolutely nothing to complain about but only expressions of gratitude. But I felt I needed to share some of my unpleasant experiences from the past to people who might not know how it feels to be on the other end of bigotry in order to create some empathy(not pity or sympathy). Because I truly believe through greater empathy you create greater understanding and caring for your fellow human being. This is a serious issue about Asian American males in America that needs to addressed, and my heart goes out to the young impressionable Asian males and females who may be going through the racism and self-hatred that I experienced as a youth. Your right Korea has some catching up to do in regards to woman rights and equality. And it is inexcusable. But you have to look at this from a historical point of view too. Korea until just recently has rebuilt and become a modern society. America in early 20th century wasn't exactly a positive beacon of woman's rights or equality either. But from someone who is living in Korea right now, believe me this is slowly changing, things are getting better, especially among the relationship between the younger generation males and females.
      You mentioned "It is common knowledge among my Asian women friends that white guys treat women as equals" expanding along the lines where you say Korea ranks along the bottom. As I mentioned above, Korea as a nation in terms of woman's rights is coming along, but I believe we are on the topic of Asian Americans aren't we? And from my personal experiences from what I have seen and having 11 korean american male cousins (I'm from a large family) and many more Asian american male married friends/acquaintances, they treat their women just fine and as equals. Asian american males aren't looking for sympathy or burst out in sob stories about this topic because frankly for alot of us it is embarrassing to seek or to do so. We just are so tired of being disrespected, stereotyped and labeled in such negative manner, when on a personal level we are none of those things. I understand on every level and in every social/ethnic group can claim some form of oppression and unfairness leveled on them, including white males these days. I just wanted to share one asian american male point of view.

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    7. GST, your attempt to debunk my theory would have more credibility if Asian-Am women indeed hated Asian-Am men. I know that has been discussed here but I don't believe that to be the case in general and certainly don't believe they choose blacks/Hispanics/Indian over Asian men. I know about 20 Asian-Am women who married white men. I would say about 2 of them dislike Asian-Am men. Most of them don't dislike them. They just happen to fall in love with a white guy due to proximity or attraction, in many cases both. You can be attracted to a different race without hating your own -- is that difficult for people to understand? Is that racist? Wouldn't it then be equally racist to be attracted to your own over other races? While I understand my point is anecdotal, absent a poll stating otherwise, my theory hasn't been disproven.

      JacL, I don't follow. If you are attracted to your own race, you're not a self-hater? My point was not that white men are better or that women are definitely more open-minded. My point was merely that there could be many reasons why an Asian woman would like a white guy and it may have nothing to do with oppression of Asian men. It seems like everyone just assumes some Asian-Am women prefer white men because they hate Asians and because Asian men are oppressed. Rather, some open-minded approach or introspection is in order instead of just assuming that white people are bad because they make Asian men look bad and Asian women are bad because we are self-haters who then hate our own kind.

      Excuse the typos. In a big rush.

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    8. Woofy,

      Your comments about being a victim of racism would have been more well-received if we were talking about racism and bigotry. As a victim of racism myself, I get it. But, I found it rather insulting for the following reasons: (1) we are discussing a separate issue and you are assuming that Asian women are so impressionable that they end up hating Asian men as a result of media/entertainment's representation of Asian men rather than their personal experiences; (2) it reflects no self-criticism on the part of Asian men even after reading the poem about how the oppressed becomes the oppressor -- but for you and so many other Asian men, it's always other people's fault, right? "Blame the white media. Blame the self-hating Asian women. We're so perfect. We're just misunderstood."

      I don't disagree that Korea has come a long way in such a short time. That is not the point. The point is whether Korean men are more misogynistic than white men because of the culture they grew up in. You are confusing the two issues. I'm sure you and your cousins are much different from your father/uncles. But that is not the point either. The point is how you guys stack up against white men in your treatment of women. You don't think being raised as a Korean-American influenced you in any way?

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    9. Helen, I disagree with your assertion that Asian American men are more misogynistic than their white American counterparts simply because they grew up in an asian household. For one, asian AMERICANS have the lowest level of domestic violence and abuse compared to all other races. The next next highest is nearly double that. Why do you think that is? Could you just please for a second consider if your narrow view of asian men is also informed by the broader white culture? I really think you are underestimating the extent to which white culture informs you of your worldview, even despite facing racism in the past. The way in which you denigrate asian men really is the same tactic you blame asian men of doing towards asian women. The stereotypes you place on asian american men, is the same damn thing you blame the other side of doing to you. Think about that for a second.

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    10. Has it ever occurred to you that maybe Asian women don't report domestic violence? And chauvinism is very different than domestic abuse. I never said asian men were domestic abusers. You are confusing the two.

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    11. Helen: "your attempt to debunk my theory would have more credibility if Asian-Am women indeed hated Asian-Am men."

      Let's keep things in perspective: most Asian women date and like Asian men. We're not worried about them.

      The problem are the abnoxious minority of Asian women who openly and loudly declare in the media, on the internet, and to acquaintances, that they avoid Asian men like the Bubonic plague.

      Now, this used to be an embarrassing secret among Asians, but today it's a running joke outside the Asian community as well. Even comedian Esther Ku has a bit where she asks, if Asian girls won't date Asian guys, will Asian guys become extinct? This gets a big laugh among nonAsians because they know all too well what she speaks of.

      "blacks/Hispanics/Indian over Asian men"

      Obviously, most do not, but enough of them do to create and reinforce perceptions and stereotypes that Asian women do not like to date Asian men.

      Stereotypes do not get started by what the majority do but what a minority do, and this annoying segment of Asian women have conferred a heap of negative stereotypes upon themselves (and Asian men as well, by extension), including being the easiest lays in town.

      "I know about 20 Asian-Am women who married white men. I would say about 2 of them dislike Asian-Am men."

      10% is small to you?

      "Most of them don't dislike them. They just happen to fall in love with a white guy due to proximity or attraction, in many cases both. You can be attracted to a different race without hating your own -- is that difficult for people to understand? Is that racist?"

      No, it's not racist, assuming it's as innocent as that, but the chances are that it's not as innocent as that. Frankly, if Asian women would just shut their mouths in regards to their disdain for Asian men or the background they were raised in, everyone would be a lot happier and less embarrassed.

      If you wanna date your nonAsian knight in shining armor, do it on the quiet. There's no need to throw rocks and incite a riot back home.

      "Wouldn't it then be equally racist to be attracted to your own over other races?"

      Absolutely not. It's normal and natural for most people to be attracted to those who look somewhat like themselves with similar backgrounds. This is the norm in every tribe, nation and ethnic group.

      Asian women with nonAsian romantic preferences have the most cockamamie rationalizations up their sleeves.

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    12. Helen: "The point is how you guys stack up against white men in your treatment of women. You don't think being raised as a Korean-American influenced you in any way?"

      If this were true, Asian women would only date white men (and we could all breathe a sigh of relief that it's not just Asian men that are being rejected). But the running joke is that Asian women date everyone but Asian men, including black, hispanic, Arab, Indian and the ambiguous looking guy.

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    13. Helen: "Has it ever occurred to you that maybe Asian women don't report domestic violence?"
      I don't know Helen, has it ever occurred to you that maybe you should just take fact as a fact? There has yet to be any conclusive evidence of your assertion while we do have objective facts regarding domestic abuse. Please tell me, what makes asian women so much less likely to report abuse than a white woman? or a black woman? or a hispanic woman? It just has to be that an asian woman is keeping quiet about it right? It just CAN'T be that asian men are less prone to abuse their women right? It's their fault right? It has to be! See how distorted your worldview is? You accuse asian men of whining about asian women, yet you turn around and do the SAME EXACT THING! The irony of you blaming the cause of asian women's outmarriage due to the chauvanism of asian men..is that most white women who date asian guys say exactly the opposite..that asian men are so much more caring, sensitive, and more emotionally attuned to their needs. I don't really know if that's true, but hey a white girl has to know a thing or two about how men of other races compare to white guys right?

      Secondly, I fail to see the point behind your distinction between chauvanism and domestic abuse. Both are pretty bad characteristics with the latter being arguably worse. So, somehow asian women PREFER the domestic violence of white men but just simply can't stand the chauvanism of asian men? Even with such stark differences in domestic violence, why do you think asian women think it's perfectly progressive and okay to date white guys? Because the mass media doesn't emphasize the problems that white males have while they consistently perpetuate negative stereotypes of asian men...and all other minority men as well!

      Look, asian men aren't perfect..far from it. But I really fail to see how they are SO much worse than white guys that you feel the abandonment of asian men is some morally justified act. Look if you love white guys and think they're fantastic, GREAT. Just please don't also feel the need to slam the door on your way out and denigrate asian men for no damn good reason. And worse, deny that steretype is partly to blame for why you think asian men are so inferior. While asian men have their faults, they really are no better or worse than the men of any other race. HONEST TO GOD.. I don't have a problem with you liking white guys. What I have a problem with, is with institutionalized racism in American society that portrays asian men in such a negative light and the effect that this has on their treatment..by asian women, whites, blacks, hispanics, whoever.

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    14. Helen

      "But, I found it rather insulting for the following reasons: (1) we are discussing a separate issue and you are assuming that Asian women are so impressionable that they end up hating Asian men as a result of media/entertainment's representation of Asian men rather than their personal experiences;"

      To be fair, some Asian women themselves have stated that the media has played a role in how they view themselves, their culture, their race, and their relationship opportunities. I don't know the extent but it is not entirely something that Asian men have made up.

      But having said that, I don't believe that media representation of Asian men need necessarily be as debilitating as it is often said to be.

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    15. Stephen, listen to yourself. "The abandonment of Asian men is some morally justified act..." I think anyone who looks at someone falling in love with someone of a different race in such a negative, self-involved light has got have issues. So, are white women who like Asian men self-hating women since they are obviously rejecting their own kind as well? Surely, if can't be that they find some redeeming qualities in Asian men that they don't find in white men. It is rather egocentric to argue that white women like Asian men because they are "caring, sensitive and more emotionally attuned to their needs" but that the only reason an Asian women would like a white guy is because she is self-hating. Talk about being arrogant! So that means any women who chooses to date outside her race must be self-hating except for when they like Asian men, right? What a narrow view of love and womenkind. Chauvenism and domestic abuse are totally different. And a fact is not a reason. It can be a fact that Asians have the lowest rate of reported domestic abuse. That doesn't mean they have the lowest rate of domestic abuse. It is like saying extremist muslim men are the least chauvinistic because those living under Sharia Law have the lowest incidence of domestic abuse.

      Ben, I don't doubt that media sculpts how we view ourselves and others. But it is another thing to assume that Asian women who don't date Asian men do so because of a few geeky characters from TV and movies.

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    16. GST, you will get no argument from me if your point is that women who disparage their own race should shut up and give their own kind some more respect. And I certainly don't agree with any opinion that Asian men are somehow inferior or less attractive, being married to one myself. But the tone of the posts here written by Asian men is that Asian women who like non-Asian men only do so because they are self-hating because media/entertainment portrays Asians (particularly Asian men) in a negative light. That is the part I don't agree with. People can like people of other races for many number of reasons. Most women date who they are exposed to and as I said before, unless an Asian girl surrounds herself with other Asians, the chances are that she will be exposed to a greater number of white men than Asian men. In many instances based on women I know, Asian women who married white guys have dated Asian men in the past. Don't let a few obnoxious ones taint how you view all Asian women who marry white guys. The obnoxious ones are in the extreme minority.

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    17. Helen,
      Interesting. You continually accuse asian men of thinking they are "perfect" and blameless and only blame asian women for marrying outside of their race. From what I've read of your previous posts, you seem to be the who who thinks asian women are completeley perfect and enlightened about the true state of reality.. HELEN: "Has it occurred to any of you that women are just more open-minded? Open-minded about race? Open-minded about love? Open-minded about culture, bloodline and lineage?", "Not so for many Asian women who don't feel the need to feel territorial or alpha anything so they end up surrounding themselves with the general population in the US."

      Moreover, I'm sorry the underlying point of my statement of white women went straight above your head. Since you have so adamantly stated that asian men fare less well than their white counterparts because of their mysogyny and deny any white cultural influence, I decided to counter that with another common sentiment that white women often mention when they date asian men. So what is the actual truth here? Are asian american men, specifically more mysogynistic than your average white guy? I'm just really concerned at how you continually put down asian men in order to fulfill your own narrative of victimhood.
      HELEN: "The point is whether Korean men are more misogynistic than white men because of the culture they grew up in..The point is how you guys stack up against white men in your treatment of women."

      Again, let me reiterate. I don't care that you like white men. What I care about is how you continue put down the males of your own race, even when you don't have any good reason for it. I'm sorry your dad or your brother let you down, or your specific set of friends think asian men suck, but I can't emphasize any more vehemently that asian men are NO BETTER OR NO WORSE than males of other races. I just find it odd that you accuse asian men of persecuting you, yet you use those same tactics to try to put down asian men.

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    18. And furthermore, did I ever say asian women are specifically to blame? I stated that I blame racist and demeaning stereotypes ingrained in American culture for propagating discrimination against asian men. And yes, I believe these negative cultural symbols of asian men are at least in part, responsible for SOME (not all) of the attitudes asian women take towards asian men...and this isn't just a phenomenon restricted to asian women! Please don't deny the power of white culture on minorities. For example, just consider this informative study about african american children and their preference for white skin. (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/13/doll.study/index.html).

      My argument isn't that asian women are somehow especially weak and vulnerable to influence..I'm saying they're prone to stereotyping asian men..JUST LIKE OTHER PEOPLE. The only difference is that at least you, a person of asian ancestry, has some sort cultural connection with asian men (however small at this point) and understand some of the racism we all go through. Of course you have your own valid personal experiences that shape your perception of asian men, but please don't underestimate the extent to which cultural bias can and has shaped some of that image you hold of asian men.

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    19. Stephen, it is clear you don't have a clue to what I am saying. You don't see the double standard because you are only seeing victimhood. Maybe the " cultural connection " these Asian women have with Asian men is what bothers them because they know from personal experience (fathers and brothers and past Asian boyfriends) that they want nothing to do with Asian men. The fact that you can't even consider that but can consider that white women may like Asian men bc they are sensitive, nurturing is what makes your viewpoint entirely biased. You don't need to preach to the choir. I love Asian men. But I am sure other women have legitimate reasons for disliking them without being self-haters.

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    20. Helen: "you will get no argument from me if your point is that women who disparage their own race should shut up and give their own kind some more respect."

      Good. At this stage, we don't even ask for respect. Silence is golden.

      "But the tone of the posts here written by Asian men is that Asian women who like non-Asian men only do so because they are self-hating because media/entertainment portrays Asians (particularly Asian men) in a negative light. That is the part I don't agree with. People can like people of other races for many number of reasons."

      We're all trying to figure out why some Asian women think/feel/behave the way they do. Among minorities, their preferences are an unusual anamoly.

      In America, there are only 2 groups that are at gender feud: Asian and black.

      The black community is a mess in every way including their gender relations. In the Asian American community, they're in disarray as a result of their weird gender relations.

      "Don't let a few obnoxious ones taint how you view all Asian women who marry white guys. The obnoxious ones are in the extreme minority."

      It's a minority but not an extreme one. Even you believe that the decision of Asian women who do not like Asian men are informed by logic and reason and not received prejudice.

      We can't ignore the loud minority among us because they are affecting all of us in the way we are collectively perceived.

      As I had said, Asian women (the loud minority) have long served as the 5th column among us. They have probably done as much or or more to harm the collective image and perceptions of Asians generally and Asian men specifically.

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    21. Helen, I think its pretty clear that you are the one that doesn't understand my point. I laid it out pretty thoroughly in my last two posts. You have the same victim-hood complex as these asian guys you like to put down. When did I ever call you or other asian women "self-haters"? Please don't inject your own biases in to what I'm saying. My point, which is now the third time I am repeating is this: Asian American men are no better or worse than American men of other races. There is however, an undeniable culture of racism and bias against asian men that may have SOME influence on how asian women AND society in general perceives them. I'm not saying asian men are perfect, they are NO BETTER OR WORSE. You however, have clearly demonstrated in your language that you think asian american women are perfect and hold none of the "baggage" of being raised by asian parents. HELEN: "Has it occurred to any of you that women are just more open-minded? Open-minded about race? Open-minded about love? Open-minded about culture, bloodline and lineage?", "Not so for many Asian women who don't feel the need to feel territorial or alpha anything so they end up surrounding themselves with the general population in the US."

      If you want to conflate being affected by cultural bias with that of "being self-haters" you need to stop hearing what you want to hear, and listen to what is actually being said. However, I do get a sense of the point you're trying to convey. Your bottom line is that asian american men are to blame. Isn't that the gist of it? You blame them for being raised by traditional asian parents and say that they cling to traditional values. I argue that is not the case and at least provided some evidence as to why that may not be true (domestic violence statistics for example). Moreover, you quietly ignore the fact that asian american women are ALSO raised bv the very same asian parents you so like to hate. Again, I'm sorry you've had such poor experiences with asian men..but don't go and trash asian men as a whole. You keep harping on the false idea that asian american men are more mysognistic than whites. Again, if you want my own personal experience..my white guy friends (which make up about half of my social circle) tend to use more sexist language than my asian friends. So who do we believe, you or I? The answer, is NEITHER because men raised in America are by and large the same. The only critical difference is how American culture elevates certain races, and denigrates others.

      Believe it or not, I am not trying to attack you. I want you to understand that I'm not calling you a self-hater. Merely, that you and I and everyone in society is to some extent beholden to the cultural biases that have been ingrained in American society. For every positive depiction of an asian man, I can literally show you 100 that are negative. For every positive image of an asian woman shown, I can show you another 100 that depicts them as hypersexualized dragon ladies who fawn after white men. What it feels like to me, is that you have had bad experiences with asian culture and maybe some of your friends have too. But to start calling out asian men as inferior to whites because of how or who raised them is just flat out wrong. Seriously, I hope you just try to think about what I'm saying.

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    22. Helen: "Maybe the " cultural connection " these Asian women have with Asian men is what bothers them because they know from personal experience (fathers and brothers and past Asian boyfriends) that they want nothing to do with Asian men ... But I am sure other women have legitimate reasons for disliking them without being self-haters."

      Obviously, something is driving their emotions. It may be a combination of the above and many other complex factors.

      Still, there is never a legitimate reason to hate your own.

      Notwithstanding the horrific gender problems in India, for example, it would be wrong for an Indian woman to write off her own people.

      But this is what many East Asian women do, insouciently, blithely and matter of factly. They pretend it's the most logical thing to do in the world.

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    23. StephenX: "Again, if you want my own personal experience..my white guy friends (which make up about half of my social circle) tend to use more sexist language than my asian friends."

      These are anecdotes but I concur.

      When women are not present, the garbage (language) that streams out from their mouths. Yet the instant a woman appears, the most perfect gentlemen they.

      The duplicity and hypocrisy are disturbing and hilarious. And women don't have a clue!

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  24. Woolfy...How do I say this, I feel ya honey. It sucks. I'm not happy about bigotry in any form. It makes my skin crawl. I'm also willing to admit that I myself might hold somewhere down in that place that's hard to reach and purge some small level of my white, southern American upbringing. But I've been fighting it since I was at least 9, which I consider my age of awareness. I'm not afraid to say that I like men in general and I don't care about their ethnicity. So without professing to be an expert on anything I still maintain that even Asian Americans experience different levels of social pressure based on nothing more than geography. How can you take marriage statistics for a small segment of a scattered population and extrapolate a single cause. One thing I have observed, since we are using personal observation (something I'm loathe to do), is the 2nd gen Asian males that I know are of two kinds. The Asian/Asian parent and the Asian/non Asian parent, guess which group identifies more "Asian"? Guess which group isn't bilingual for example. Guess which group, male and female, date outside and marry outside of their own race more often? That's right, you guessed it. The group that is less Asian. These guys play sports, date white girls and have white, black and other friends. None of them complain or behave like fish out of water. Two of them are U.S. Marines and nobody fucks with them. I understand that media does not portray Asian men in a positive light and when it does they are nothing more than caricatures like Mr. Miyagi or Jackie Chan. But this is the U.S. and one thing I think even The Korean would also agree is that the U.S. isn't a place where cultural absolutes apply. Look if Asians want to assert themselves more in American society I'm all for it. I'll do whatever I can even if you guys would rather I keep my mouth shut. Asians should be more aggressive in finding a better place for themselves in this country. You won't get it if you don't fight for it. There are a lot of white people that are not going to hand over being at the top of the food chain without a battle. It's creepy and lizard like but I guess it's also human.

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    1. "There are a lot of white people that are not going to hand over being at the top of the food chain without a battle."

      And why would they? Do you think Koreans in Korea will simply decide one day to open the floodgates and allow millions of immigrants to settle down there, and take over top positions throughout society? Of course they won't, because that would be cultural and ethnic suicide. And yet white people in the US are supposed to do the same for the millions of people around the world who want to immigrate there? In case you haven't noticed, globalization has already gutted the working and middle classes in the US. People are having a hard enough time there as it is, and yet white people are still supposed to bend over backwards to make life better for their economic and romantic rivals -- often at their own expense? Why should they? Please give me one good reason why. Because of white guilt? Give me a break!

      According to the 2010 United States Census, whites made up over 75% of the US population. For better or worse, the US was largely built by whites. I don't think it's at all fair or right that they came over from Europe long ago and stole land from the various Indian tribes there, and I don't support slavery in any form, either. Nevertheless, the reality is that many whites in the US have families that have been in the country for hundreds of years, whereas most Korean-Americans have only been there for a few generations at the most. The Korean himself wasn't even born in the US, for example. So, sorry, but I don't get this entitled attitude where people expect the dominant society to just hand you nice jobs and sexy mates on a silver platter, without having to work hard for it. I think that in this context, the US has been relatively generous compared to the immigration policies of many countries, including South Korea. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area, for example, and the city currently has a Chinese-American Mayor, Ed Lee. I have white American friends in Korea who speak fluent Korean; does anyone seriously think that they have a chance of becoming mayor of a major South Korean city any time soon?

      I accepted long ago that South Koreans would never accept me as a full-fledged member of their society, and I'm fine with that. At least in the US, you can actually become an accepted member of society there if you work hard at it and have something to offer it. And yet there seem to be a lot of people who take that for granted and somehow think the US owes them some kind of perfect life or something. It doesn't, and the sooner your accept that, the happier you'll be. Good luck, is all I have to say!

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    2. Oh, and I'm really sorry if someone called you bad names in high school, but here's a news flash for you: Kids can be cruel to other kids regardless of race or ethnicity. In fact, it tends to be the rule rather than the exception. I got called all sorts of names in high school, and several black kids tried to mug me on campus. One time I was even assaulted with a knife. Another time a couple of rich, bratty Korean-American and Vietnamese-American kids called me names in math class and at recess. Whatever, everyone called everyone else names in high school; some people put up with it and others fought back. The jocks thought the new wavers were geeks, yada, yada, yada. It's all a part of growing up, so enough of the sob stories already. Sorry, but you just weren't that special!

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    3. Baeksu: "So, sorry, but I don't get this entitled attitude where people expect the dominant society to just hand you nice jobs and sexy mates on a silver platter, without having to work hard for it."

      I agree. But America treats minorities differently and unequally, and therein lies the problem. Even Affirmative Action, which is supposed to give a leg up to minorities, disadvantage Asians, particularly Asian males, further.

      "does anyone seriously think that they have a chance of becoming mayor of a major South Korean city any time soon?"

      Within 50 years, I wouldn't be surprised to see a mayor of non-Korean ancestry.

      "I accepted long ago that South Koreans would never accept me as a full-fledged member of their society, and I'm fine with that. At least in the US, you can actually become an accepted member of society there if you work hard at it and have something to offer it."

      Identity politics runs deep in America and it's toxic. On the surface, race is not supposed to matter, but under the duplicitous veneer Americans are systematically divided across ethnic/racial lines and treated unequally accordingly. For some minorities, it will continue to be difficult to be accepted as legitimate members of American society for the foreseeable future.

      In Korea, race-based politics remains largely absent. And to the extent it stays so, I think that in time, if/when the number of Korean citizens with foreign ancestry reaches a tipping point, you will be "seen" as full fledged member of Korean society.

      "Whatever, everyone called everyone else names in high school; some people put up with it and others fought back. The jocks thought the new wavers were geeks, yada, yada, yada. It's all a part of growing up, so enough of the sob stories already. Sorry, but you just weren't that special!"

      LOL. Yes, true. If it's not one thing you're teased about, it's another.

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    4. Nicely put, King Baeksu. I am so tired of this victim mentality.

      By the way, Woofy, I was called all sorts of horrible names when I first immigrated. It went on every day at school for an entire year. But I never hated being Asian as a result of it. I just thought they were ignorant fools who needed to grow up. If you hated yourself because of it, it says more about you than it does about them.

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    5. Good for you, Helen. High school is often just a big joke, so it's best not to take it too seriously, anyway. What do kids know, right?

      BTW, all my friends in middle school and high school -- black and white -- thought Bruce Lee was cool as fuck. And what about George Takei, who played Sulu on "Star Trek," or Pat Morita of "Happy Days" and "Karate Kid" fame? I think it's a bit disingenuous to say that Asian-Americans had no positive role models in the US media growing up, even in the 1970s or 1980s. I'm trying to think of Westerners in the Korean TV industry who qualify as "positive role models," but frankly most of them are highly Koreanized clowns who are an embarrassment both to themselves and other Westerners here. Fortunately, I don't watch TV, since it often sucks just as much as high school, so it doesn't really bother me at all!

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    6. King Baeksu

      I don't think it fair to characterize the, often racialized, bullying and harassment of Asian children in America's schools as simple name-calling.

      One difference of the Asian childhood experience of racism is that by and large, the racist attitudes and behaviours that we experience in school seem to be culturally normalized via the media. Furthermore, racism experienced by Asian children at the hands of their non-Asian peers, often goes beyond name-calling and racially inflected harassment and (as has been seen in South Philly and New York schools) into full on violence - often under the watchful eye of teachers and school admins.

      Although it may have decreased, there are still regular depictions of Asians in popular mainstream cultural productions that model the kind of racial baiting, harassment, and even violence, that Asian kids experience in America's schools. If it was just a case of kids being cruel to kids, then solutions to it my be simple.

      But this clearly is not the case, when American culture (and its popular celebs) depicts behaviours that demean Asians and present this as a perfectly normal way to conceive of Asians, then it is reasonable to wonder whether this acts as a model for both behaviour and attitudes amongst non-Asian kids in their interactions with Asians.

      Something like 70% of Asian kids report being bullied in American schools, and American culture is casual about depicting Asians in a negative light. Is there a connection? I don't really know, but I'm reluctant to dismiss such a possibility out of hand.

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    7. "Something like 70% of Asian kids report being bullied in American schools."

      Is that all? I'll bet most kids of all ethnicities and races are bullied in US schools at one point or another. America is simply a very violent society. Ever notice how Korean-Canadians or Korean-Japanese are a lot more chill than Korean-Americans? Why is that?

      "I don't think it fair to characterize the, often racialized, bullying and harassment of Asian children in America's schools as simple name-calling."

      The name-calling I referenced above was often racial in nature. I can't even count how many times I was harassed by black kids in junior high and high school, and called "cracker" or "honky" to my face. What, that doesn't count? Let me tell you about the time that I was cornered by two scary-ass black kids in the locker room at Berkeley High School during lunchtime when it was nearly empty; they demanded my wallet and threatened dire consequences if I didn't "give it up now, white boy!" How did I deal with the situation? Go whining to the fucking media about it? No, I dealt with the situation by using my street smarts and quickly moved on. This is actually the first time I've ever mentioned it in public, and I certainly don't blame the entire black race for what happened.

      Let me tell you about another incident involving one of my best friends in 8th Grade, who happened to be Jewish. During PE class one time, he had somehow "dissed" another black student, who felt that my friend had gotten his sneakers dirty during a basketball game. The black kid literally forced my friend to get down on his hands and knees and wipe off his sneakers with his own shirt, while everyone else crowded around and watched. I don't even think my friend had actually touched his shoes, and I couldn't see much much of anything on the sneakers myself. It was obviously humiliating for my friend, but it was either that or have his ass kicked by one tough-as-nails motherfucker. Did my friend go whining to the Jewish Defense League afterwards? No, he sucked it up and moved on, and more importantly made sure he didn't put himself in such risky situations in the future.

      "Furthermore, racism experienced by Asian children at the hands of their non-Asian peers, often goes beyond name-calling and racially inflected harassment and (as has been seen in South Philly and New York schools) into full on violence - often under the watchful eye of teachers and school admins."

      I'd like to see a few documented examples of teachers and school administrators who have "condoned" or "allowed" racially motivated violence under their watch and still kept their jobs.

      [Continued below]

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    8. [Continued from above]

      "But this clearly is not the case, when American culture (and its popular celebs) depicts behaviours that demean Asians and present this as a perfectly normal way to conceive of Asians, then it is reasonable to wonder whether this acts as a model for both behaviour and attitudes amongst non-Asian kids in their interactions with Asians."

      Have you read and seen how the Korean media portrays white males in Korea? It got so bad that in my last book, which was published in Korea in Korean, I tried to address the problem square on by providing "positive" examples of Westerners in Korea doing interesting things here, but the mainstream Korean media largely ignored it, unlike all my other books. At least in the US, if there is discrimination you will at least get a fair hearing in public, but in the Korean media they'd rather look the other way more often than not in such cases. Hell, I was even targeted by a Korean hate group who called up Hongik University repeatedly and tried to get me fired for no reason other than that I had published some books about Korea. Do you think the Korean media tried to back me up, or come to my defense? Hell, no, they didn't -- despite it being a prominent online campaign against me. Now can you imagine a Korean university instructor in the US being targeted by a white hate group, demanding that they be fired merely for not being white? Do you think there would be a media blackout across the board, a conspiracy of silence about it? Somehow I don't think so.

      Anyway, if some Asian-American men want to keep on presenting themselves as hapless victims of a cruelly racist society, they're welcome to do so, but somehow I doubt that's going to improve their odds with the ladies. I could be wrong, of course, and I do wish them the best of luck -- although usually skill has a lot more to do with it in most cases!

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    9. King Baeksu

      You haven't really addressed any of my points. The issue isn't that kids bully each other, the issue is that American culture models and normalizes the behaviour - that is it fosters racial abuse and harassment of Asian children in the school setting. Your logic is not clear - the Korean media negatively representing white males does not address this point. If you think that it is problematic for the media to propagate attitudes and behaviours then you are agreeing with my concerns that America's media depictions of Asians fosters abusive behaviour towards Asian children.

      I'm sad that you were racially abused at school, but glad that it hasn't turned into a frothing racist, yet, my guess is that you didn't (as a white child) have to contend with a media reinforcement and propagation of the racist behaviours you were experiencing. For example, were there movies, TV shows, songs, or works of literature, that depicted racial abuse and harassment of white people as a funny and normal behaviour?

      But your points about Korea's media have nothing to do with the America's cultural normalization of demeaning behaviours towards Asians. You are just not making any sense with your lengthy response.

      As for Asian men losing out in love and being angry about, I'm not convinced the problem is as acute as some would have me believe, and I certainly don't believe that Asian men are anywhere near as invested in the dating choices of Asian women as you seem to want to believe.

      On a final note, the 70% figure denotes Asians who experience bullying on a regular basis, not kids who have ever experienced bullying. My guess is that the number of Asian kids who have ever experienced racially inflected bullying is also at 100%.

      I can't really be bothered to provide you with links to incidents where violence towards Asian kids was overlooked by school staff, but if you are interested, google "Lafayette high school department of justice", or "South Philly high school department of justice", and you may read about the kind of violence I am talking about that was only addressed when the beans were spilled to the news by Asian advocacy groups. In fact, there was in the past two weeks another report that showed endemic levels of anti-Asian bullying in New York schools in which it was reported that 60% of the abuse took place in the classroom.

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    10. Oh dear, I can see that this is rapidly turning into another interminable discussion on identity politics. It's one of the reasons why I left the US, in fact.

      Let me just briefly explain where I am coming from:

      I grew up in the SF Bay Area where, believe it or not, being white is actually a disadvantage. Both I and my white friends experienced discrimination in terms of education and work opportunities directly. Nevertheless, I was raised a good white liberal and spent quite a lot of time learning and caring about the problems faced by minorities in the US.

      I then came to Korea and became a minority myself. I can handle that, but then I encountered countless Korean-Americans and African-Americans here with a huge chip on their shoulder who still saw me as "the enemy" because of my so-called "white privilege." A lot of good all my white liberal sensitivity, cultivated over many years, did for me, eh?

      Recently, I challenged The Korean to make a public statement about the video of two white men supposedly harassing a Korean girl in a club, which turned out to be a hoax made by a Korean filmmaker. He was interviewed about it in The Washington Post and made no attempt to authenticate it. It would have been nice for him to help set the record straight for his readers, but he just doesn't seem to give a fuck.

      So forgive me if I'm not hugely motived to care a whole lot the issue under review here, or the supposedly negative stereotypes of Asian-Americans in the US media, given how little give and take I've experienced myself in this area. Indeed, I've seen shows like "Lost" with Daniel Dae Kim or movies like "Harold & Kumar Go to White Castle" starring John Cho and Kal Penn and think there are plenty of American TV shows and movies with positive Asian-Americans "role models" in them.

      However, I personally grew up with something of an anti-establishment mind-set and was not one to base my personal identity on TV characters, but hey, that's just me. I suppose that if young Asian-Americans don't like how they're portrayed in the US film or TV industry, they can just make their own movies, can't they? Who's to stop them? Back in 1997, I didn't like any of the English-language newspapers or magazines in Korea, so I just started up my own magazine and it was the beginning of a fairly successful writing and publishing career here.

      So this is where I am coming from. I have looked at your blog and can see where you're coming from, too. All I can say for now is that we are not headed in the same direction.

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    11. I honestly don't know what you are talking about. The video you are talking about was dreamed up, and created by white dudes - what on earth does that have to do with American culture propagating attitudes and behaviours that foster racial abuse of Asian children in American schools?

      And who is asking you to care about anything? I personally don't care what you think or what you do, but I expect those with a healthy moral sense to at least be disturbed by the possibility that American culture's casual propagation of demeaning images of Asians may be contributing to the abuse of Asian children, by their non-Asian peers, often whist the adults entrusted to care for them simply look the other way.

      But you have written, well, doesn't seem connected in any way to what I have been talking about. Are you even reading my posts? And thanks for visiting my blog.

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    12. "I honestly don't know what you are talking about."

      That's because you're too wrapped up in your own self-absorbed victimology narrative.

      "The video you are talking about was dreamed up, and created by white dudes"

      No, it wasn't. It was dreamed up and created by Koreans. And The Korean is complicit in perpetuating negative stereotypes of white men in Korea, since he participated in The Washington Post story without bothering to authenticate it, and because he failed to make a public statement or retraction after it was exposed as a hoax. The fact that you think it's real proves my point exactly.

      "...what on earth does that have to do with American culture propagating attitudes and behaviours that foster racial abuse of Asian children in American schools?"

      Again, your reading comprehension sucks. Give and take is a standard expression in the English language. And people like you are all take and no give, in my experience. Well, good luck with that!

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    13. Interesting. Pointing out a possible connection between casual demeaning stereotyped depictions of Asians in American culture and racial abuse of Asian kids in American schools is a victim narrative.

      And the lack of reading comprehension is yours. Please show me where I said that the video was authentic. Maybe English isn't your first language.

      Give and take is a different proposition to changing the subject to talk about your own sad life - which is what you did. Self-absorption indeed. Maybe I hurt your feelings when I said I couldn't care less what you think or do? My guess is that is the story of your life.

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    14. Ben, don't you think media/entertainment reflects cultural norms rather than the reverse? Are people scared of black people because media/entertainment portrays blacks as criminals? Or is it that a much greater percentage of blacks commit crimes than Asian-Americans/whites? Do people think Asians are geeky because media/entertainment portrays them that way or are they portrayed that way because they are more likely to be that way than other races? I really think these angry Asian men blaming the media/entertainment industry for their plight is misguided. There are more Asian and Jewish geeks than other races. But you don't have to resign yourself to just being a geek and being womanless. I know plenty of hot, well-built, smart Asian guys who joined fraternities in college who ended up dating both Asian and white women.

      Ben, I grew up with plenty of racial slurs being thrown at me every day. Ching chong, soybean, beanpaste, la choy, gook, suzie wong.... I chalked it up to kids just being ignorant and immature; not a social commentary on how awful the media/this country is. The US is obviously not perfect but I feel very fortunate and grateful to have been allowed to come here and grow up here and enjoys the spoils that people in the past have fought so hard for.

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    15. "Please show me where I said that the video was authentic."

      OK: "The video you are talking about was dreamed up, and created by white dudes."

      No wonder you see bullies everywhere -- you have a exceedingly warped imagination.

      "Maybe I hurt your feelings when I said I couldn't care less what you think or do? My guess is that is the story of your life."

      It's not the story of my life, but it's certainly depressing talking with you.

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    16. Helen

      It is probable that the media both reflects and drives cultural norms. I think that it is established that the media can and does shape the attitudes of a society - that isn't something that Asian dudes came up with to have something to whine about. It is why authoritarian governments have tight controls over news reporting and use the creative media to manipulate pıublic opinion and forge national identity. Thus, newsmedia doesn't criticize the ruling party, and the creative media fashions scenarios that reinforce ideas of "good citizenship" through stereotypes and simplistic archetypal characters, whilst demonizing those deemed to be threat to the system.

      I'm not saying that the US media is like that, I'm just pointing out the degree to which the media is vital to a nation - it serves a very important role. And as I say, this is established that the media has immense capacity to shape behaviour and attitudes. Thus, it seems obvious to me that it is possible that one-sided, demeaning, and dehumanizing, depictions of Asian people in American culture might well shape the behaviour of non-Asian kids towards their Asian peers. If this is the case, then perhaps you have assessed your experiences of racism in childhood incorrectly?

      I also don't really buy it that Asian men are merely blaming the media as a means of excusing their own shortcomings. Firstly, there are many Asian women (including Asian women who date only white men), who are critical of the representation of Asian people in the media. Secondly, there are many Asian men who are happily married (including Asian men like myself who have happily married out) who criticize media representations of Asians. Thirdly, there are many in the Asian LGBT community who criticize media representations of Asians. Fourthly, there are many Asians from all sides of the political spectrum - left and conservative - who find fault with media representations of Asians. Fifthly, Asians of all ethnicities - from NE and SE, to South and western - are critical of media representations of Asians.

      So if it were only single Asian men who couldn't get dates who were critical of the media, then I would be more likely to agree with your point. But this is evidently not the case and the media is not being criticized solely (or even seriously) on the grounds that it stifles dating opportunities. And in my case specifically, I don't criticize the media for stifling dating opportunities - in fact I write at length on my blog about how it is misguided to believe this. My concern - and the main reason I started blogging - is that America is a society in which the expression of racism is ubiquitous amongst children. I think it is completely reasonable to consider that media representations of Asians contributes to this fact.

      And I'm a little befuddled - I see no conflict between gratitude towards the positives of my country and wanting to change the negatives for the better. That is what being American offers the individual - you sound like you don't feel you are truly American unless you are compliant with established norms? Did I misunderstand this point?

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    17. BTW, it look me literally five seconds to find the following information from the American Psychological Association (after Googling "percentage of asian students bullied"):

      Myths About Asian-American Bullying and Victimization:

      Myth: Asian-American students are bullied far more than other ethnic groups, with 54 percent of Asian-American students reporting that they were bullied in the classroom.

      Fact: Fewer Asian-American students (17 percent) reported being bullied at school than did any other ethnic groups. The 54 percent figure refers to where the bullying occurred, not the overall rate. Over half of Asian-American students who report being bullied, say it occurring in the classroom.

      Myth: Asian-American students are cyberbullied far more than any other ethnic group, with 62 percent of Asian-American students reporting that they were bullied online up to twice a month.

      Fact: Fewer Asian-American students (2.9 percent) reported being cyberbullied than did any other ethnic group. The 62 percent figure refers to how frequently the cyberbullying occurred among those reported being cyber-bullied, not the overall rate.

      National Data

      According to a According to the Indicators of School Crime and Safety: 2010 report:

      Fewer Asian-American students (18 percent) reported being bullied at school or cyberbullied than did white students (35 percent), African-American students (31 percent) or Latino students (28 percent). More Asian-American victims of bullying (11.1 percent) said that they were bullied because of their race than did white victims (2.8 percent), African-American victims (7.1 percent) or Latino victims (6.2 percent).

      Like other racial minorities, more Asian-American students (11 percent) reported being frequently targeted with race-related hate words than was reported by White students (3 percent).

      Racial/ethnic minorities who break stereotypes are more likely to be bullied. Asian American and Latino student athletes were more likely to be bullied, whereas sport participation was an insulating factor for White and Black students.

      Among Asian American students, immigrant and 2nd generation students were more likely to be victimized than 3rd or later generation students. Data comes from the Education Longitudinal Study of 2002 (a nation-wide sample of over 10,000 public high school students).

      Data on nearly 750 Asian American middle and high school students from the National Longitu-dinal Study of Adolescent Health (1994-95 co-hort) suggest that 17 percent reported being violently victimized (e.g., had a gun/knife pulled on her/him, stabbed, cut or jumped) at least once in the past year.

      Statistics and Points to Keep in Mind

      Asian-Americans are often missing or not available in nationwide data on school victimization, making it difficult to compare across groups and studies.

      How researchers ask a question determines how students will respond. Asian-American middle school boys were less likely to report being a victim when asked how often they were “bullied” in the previous month, but more boys reported being a victim when asked how often someone had repeatedly tried to hurt them or make them feel bad with specific behavior such as name-calling, threatening, shoving, spreading rumors or ignoring.

      Differences among and within Asian ethnic groups can be more important than findings across panethnic Asian-American groups. It would be useful to pay attention to findings on specific subgroups, such as Asian-American student athletes or Vietnamese-Americans, and not just those that combine all Asian-Americans into one category.

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    18. Baeksu

      Are you really that stupid? A video was made - there is no doubt about that, and was dreamed up and created by white dudes. The content was staged. Do you not understand that? The video was dreamed up and made by white dudes but the content was staged - how does that show I believe it was authentic?

      People not caring about the stupid things you have to say is obviously the story of your life. Just go back to whining about your sorry existence and stop deluding yourself that you have something to say.

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    19. Baeksu

      "Myths About Asian-American Bullying and Victimization"

      Interesting. But your English comprehension is observably untrustworthy.

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    20. Oh, and in reference to the above data from the American Psychological Association: "This fact sheet is a product of the Asian American Psychological Association Leadership Fellows Program and fellow Nellie Tran, PhD, and project mentor Sumie Okazaki, PhD."

      I'm not sure where you get your "70% figure" that "denotes Asians who experience bullying on a regular basis," but I trust the Asian American Psychological Association Leadership Fellows Program far more than I do you.

      As for the video, you simply have no idea what you are talking about. I have literally spoken directly with the director, who is a South Korean national, not a "white dude." Please refrain from speaking about a subject on which you are ignorant, is my advice. At the very least, you are being disingenuous, because the reason everyone got pissed off about it in the first place was because they thought it had been made by the white guys in the video, or as you first wrote, "The video you are talking about was dreamed up, and created by white dudes." If I had not challenged that statement, you would have contributed to perpetuating that false assumption among those not familiar with the background of its production. And yet here you are complaining about unfair representations of Asian-Americans in American culture. Like I said, give and take, Ben, give and take. You want people to treat you fairly, try playing fair yourself, OK?

      Anyway, thanks for the lols about my "sorry existence." I've looked at your site and some of your fans are the Asian-American equivalent of Stormfront, it seems. What delightful company you keep!

      Delete
    21. "Interesting. But your English comprehension is observably untrustworthy."

      Translation: "I just got schooled by a white dude, and boy does that suck."

      Delete
    22. Baeksu

      Of course you would imagine a grandiose dismantling of my points - it is in keeping with your sorry need to win the Gold medal in the victim olympics. I fail to see how positing a connection between demeaning depictions of Asians in American culture and the higher rates of bullying of Asian children in American schools is a disingenuine endeavour. I'm not really sorry that you don't like the idea that American culture might be promoting abusive behaviour towards Asian children by their non-Asian peers but I think it is a reasonable area of inquiry.

      My statement was "something like 70% of Asian kids are bullied" - a perfectly appropriate off the top of my head figure from memory for the purposes of engaging with an anonymous blog poster with an observably dubious moral compass. I will leave it to others to check for themselves whether it is true that white kids experience the most bullying in schools.

      Bur regardless of whether it is 100% or 60% of Asian kids who are bullied, that doesn't change the possibility that the media may be modeling the behaviour that enables it and that this doesn't happen for other children. I think that is a possibility worthy of further inquiry. Why that agitates you off I don't know, and don't really care.

      And I agree that give and take is a good thing - I just don't see how trying to change the subject onto your own sad life is a good example of it.

      As for the video, the authenticity of its content has nothing to do with who made it. If I am wrong about its origin, it is still a stretch to look for a way to make white folks victims by claiming I thought it was authentic. Why do you need to be a victim so much? Aren't you happy in your "happy existence"?

      Again, thanks for visiting my site - I didn't know I had fans! Regardless of who visits it - Stormfronting Asians or self-pitying and whiny white dudes who see no problem with culture fostering psychological and physical abuse of children - I would have to say that the overall tone of my blog is positive. Perhaps it is a testament to your joyful existence that you view blog commenters as "company".

      Delete
    23. Baeksu

      Translation: "I just got schooled by a white dude, and boy does that suck."

      LOL. There you go again thinking that it's all about race.

      Delete
    24. "And I agree that give and take is a good thing - I just don't see how trying to change the subject onto your own sad life is a good example of it."

      Man, what is wrong with you? You said Asian students are the target of racialized bullying in the US and in response I gave a few examples of how it had happened to me as well, and that is "changing the subject"? Not only did I address your point, I tried to find the 70% figure you mentioned and found out that you had simply pulled it out of your ass. Don't get pissed at me if you can't back up your claims and others expose them as wrong.

      "As for the video, the authenticity of its content has nothing to do with who made it. If I am wrong about its origin, it is still a stretch to look for a way to make white folks victims by claiming I thought it was authentic. Why do you need to be a victim so much?"

      Again, what are you talking about? Who did or didn't make it had everything to do with its authenticity. It was not made by the two white men in the video, which is what The Korean and Max Fisher of The Washington Post thought. And that Washington Post story was in turn the basis of dozens of more media reports around the world showing "white guys abusing a Korean girl" in a club in Seoul. I personally tracked down one of the actors in the video and found out that it was in fact made by a Korean director, and that the two white actors in it were lied to about the true nature of the production (they were told it was meant to be a "horror movie," given large quantities of alcohol by the director and encouraged to be as wild as possible over the course of several hours of filming). And yet what we see in this post is people like The Korean and you complaining about "emasculating stereotypes about Asian American men." The only takeaway I can see here is that media stereotypes about Asian-Americans are bad, but media stereotypes about white men in Korea are good -- since you're obviously too self-absorbed to be bothered if it happens to other racial groups. And if I bother to point out that highly hypocritical cognitive dissonance, that is "changing the subject"? Yeah, I get your subject: It's a unidirectional race-driven agenda in which you simply lecture other people instead of trying to have an intellectually honest discussion and engage alternate points of view.

      Anyway, I'm not a "victim." It doesn't bother me that I was called names in high school, and I was not permanently scarred by it. I certainly does not compel me to write long screeds on my blog complaining about how I've been "emasculated" by someone else. It also doesn't bother me that the Korean media ignored my last book, because it was a bestseller regardless. If publishing bestselling books makes me a "victim" and a "sad" person, then I hope I'm never as "happy" as you!

      Delete
    25. Helen: "Are people scared of black people because media/entertainment portrays blacks as criminals? Or is it that a much greater percentage of blacks commit crimes than Asian-Americans/whites?"

      If only this were still true. The opposite has been true for a while: there is no one smarter, cooler and more intelligent than a black man on television.

      "Do people think Asians are geeky because media/entertainment portrays them that way or are they portrayed that way because they are more likely to be that way than other races? I really think these angry Asian men blaming the media/entertainment industry for their plight is misguided."

      Asian women really do have sex drives on overdrive? "Love you long time" isn't just a line from a movie? Asian women are more slutty than other women? After all, the massage parlors across America are full of them.

      Stereotypes are funny things. No stereotype can be wrong inasmuch as every trait exists in every group in some trace amount. But somehow, through repetition or dumb luck, a stereotype will stick. Opposite stereotypes can coexist at the same time as well. For example, the submissive Asian woman vs. dragon lady; the gentle, educated Asian man vs. narrow minded, patriarchal tyrant; liberal white human rights advocate vs. genocidal, racist maniac.

      Delete
    26. Ben, Baeksu:

      I think we can agree that while things aren't perfect in America, Asians Americans have it better than most minorities, notwithstanding the systematic discrimination and normalized racism.

      And despite some of the annoyances (from within and without), for most of us most of the time, they are abstract concerns.

      Delete
    27. baeksu

      I'm disappointed. Your latest schooling of me sucked almost as bad as the first. I believe you that you are not permanently scarred by being called names in school, but find that to be at odds with the fact that it was the first thing you referenced when you tried to change the subject of my initial post. The only person talking about their experience of bullying in school is you - my concerns have been with other people's kids and hoping that if there is a connection between school harassment of Asian kids and media depictions then those with a healthy moral compass of all races would feel motivated to endeavour to change it.

      You are obviously not of that ilk. Your moral compass seems so skewed that even a multi billion dollar international television and film industry, a vast body of literature, theater, and centuries old philosophical tradition, all of which show how fantastic white dudes are not enough for you to feel good about yourself. No, you also require that small time bloggers with concerns about culturally normalized abuse of children rarely discussed in any arena, make the image of white dudes a priority to soothe your fragile self-image. See why I have a hard time taking you seriously?

      And I'm happy that you've had a best-selling book - considering that you imagine slights in simple questions, and require an almost totalitarian acquiescence to positive images of white dudes, you have obviously exceeded expectation. Emasculated? You are the poster boy. Perhaps you can use the royalties to visit starving children in the developing world and pressure those helpless and under-represented souls to prioritize your need for positive images of white dudes - but my guess is that they will think you are a bitch.

      I know exactly who you are. Some black kid made you his bitch, and you responded by picking on kids smaller than you in the hope that you could ingratiate yourself with your tormentors. You possibly even used racist terms against other white kids and looked to your bitch-masters for approval. And possibly even to this day, you are nervous when you are around a black dude, smiling nervously, but going flaccid inside. And for the next few days, you're irritable and grumpy with your girlfriend (or boyfriend, whatever the case may be), because you secretly suspect that she (or he) wants to look up the black dude and get with them.

      So later you decide to move to a foreign country, and for whatever reason, you choose Korea. Sadly, it dawns on you, that even the Asians think you are a little bitch, and now you are just raging. How dare they not see how important you are? But here's the kicker; you weren't picked on because you were white, but because it was easy to make you a bitch. Yes, I feel sad for you, but I'm hardly motivated to make your need to have everyone think you are an awesome white dude a priority on my blog - that space is reserved for those who don't have the benefits of multi-billion dollar media industries which do cater to upholding your image. The fact that even this isn't enough to help you merely reveals the depths of your pathos.

      But you still have a hard time understanding simple English, regardless of who made the videos, nowhere have I even remotely indicated that I thought it was authentic. Please get off it, you are embarrassing yourself. The only dishonesty in my posts is down to having poor memory for numbers. Objective visitors to my blog might verify that the tone is positive in the extreme, and far from whiny, and rarely do I even personalize my ideas - my personal life experience is not the subject or aim of my blog. I'm simply an observer.

      Anyways, we're not getting anywhere - your self-image is too fragile to have a reasonable conversation with you, and I just simply couldn't care less, nor do I have the wherewithal to helping you to fix it.

      Enjoy the rest of your joyful existence.

      Delete
    28. Lol, you know nothing about me. I had black, Filipino, Mexican and gay roommates in university and afterwards. My Korean, Japanese and Chinese friends have invited me into their homes on numerous occasions. No black kids ever made me their "bitch" because I don't take shit from anyone, including punks like you.

      The only reason I brought up the video was to indicate that without more give and take, my sympathy about these "stereotypes" of which you and The Korean speak is minimal at this point. Anyway, good luck with your grievance agenda, but you know, if the problem is "white people," you'll have more luck trying to engage your "enemy" instead of merely preaching to the choir -- which, in the case of your blog, seems to be some serious white haters, but like I said, my sympathy for such people is essentially nil at this point.

      Oh, and it's four bestsellers, not one. Just for the record. Seems like quite a few Koreans are interested in what I have to say, doesn't it?

      Delete
    29. baeksu

      Four? Impressive. That means more dis-empowered children for you to pressurize into making the image of white dudes a priority. Like I say, I have no agenda - my writing is about observation, but you are too caught up in being a victim that it has made you dull.

      And finally - really this time - my blog space is what it is, I will let people decide for themselves what it is about and trust that all visitors will approach with objectivity. Regardless, I do not apportion much value to your opinion, so you are wasting your time trying to put me on the defensive about my writings.



      Delete
    30. "That means more dis-empowered children for you to pressurize into making the image of white dudes a priority."

      Wow, what an offensive, condescending attitude you have towards the proud people of Korea. Well, I'm sure they'll be thankful when you finally ride into town to "save" them!

      "I will let people decide for themselves what it is about and trust that all visitors will approach with objectivity."

      Lol at the "objectivity." Like I said, all take and no give, aren't you?

      By all means, keep on spewing your petty, childish gibberish. It just makes you look like even more of an ass!

      Delete
    31. Lol, looks like Mr. Efsaneyim put his foot in his big mouth, and has slunk away to his own hate-filled site to licks his wounds.

      Not only does he have a rather warped view of Koreans, who apparently are "pressurized" white-worshippers lacking their own autonomy and agency, but he also seems to be a full-on misogynist. From a post he wrote entitled "I want to be Black!":

      "The combination of these three factors meant that the sexual primacy of white men was no longer guaranteed by racist laws and disempowered white women. Furthermore, the preference of many white women for black partners diminished confidence even further. It’s no wonder that we see such a dramatic reaction to this loss of sexual assuredness. Not content with the sloppy seconds of African-American men, the fight to reclaim sexual pride was on. For this to be achieved a new class of sexual "omega" was created that would divert attention away from the increasingly apparent flaccid potency of the white mainstream.

      "Almost in the blink of an eye, Asian men became asexual in the imagery of American culture and the process of appropriating the hyper-sexualized image of black men and applying it to white men had begun. The loss of power over the choices of white women and the sense of inadequacy this created was cushioned by the newly created myths of white male sexual hyper-potency. Simultaneously, stereotypes of Asian male sexual inadequacy increased. The rest is history.

      "Since the 1970’s popular cultural images of Asian men in America have become increasingly demeaning. The turn-around is so complete (and a necessary safeguard of the fragile white dick) that images of an empowered and sexually confident Asian man are anathema to this culture. The fear of Asian male sexual potency is so profound, that Asian men are even forbidden from taking roles in historical movies where the main character was an extremely powerful and sexually potent Asian. In fact, non-demeaning images of Asian men are largely restricted in American society and media for this reason."

      What Mr. Efsaneyim seems to be arguing here is that any white woman who dates or marries a white man is merely the "sloppy seconds" of black men. What a charming turn of phrase. Once again, his race-driven grievance agenda has dehumanized and disempowered an entire group of people, just as he did to Koreans above. But what wonders is where this leaves Asian-American women who date white men? Are they "sloppy thirds," the leftovers of both black and Asian men, or do they have the honor of joining their white sisters in being merely "sloppy seconds"? Would you care to enlighten us all on this matter, Mr. Efsaneyim?

      You also claim that there is a systemic conspiracy in the US media and entertainment industry to demean, desexualize and disempower Asian-American men, so that white men can firm up their "flaccid" and "fragile" white dicks. Do you actually have any evidence for this claim, or is it yet more paranoid delusion on your part?

      Delete
    32. Baeksu

      Thanks for the free advertising for my blog! The number of page views for my blog has shot through the roof! Now to add adsense.Provide a link next time please!

      I won't correct you on your poor comprehension of my work, or your sorry attempts to misconstrue the meaning or intentions of my writing. It seems like you spent one whole day of your joyful life scouring my blog, raging because I don't prioritize the image of white dudes.

      Please, please, please, stop trying to turn yourself into a victim - no-one is buying it and it makes you look pathetic. Why does the possibility that American culture fosters aggressive and bullying behaviour towards Asian children threaten your fragile image?

      Yes, I would expect you to become angry about it, but for the sake of the kids who are the targets of abuse, not because it threatens your self-image.

      And just for the record my blog has attracted Asians of all types - women, men, mixed-race, women who date white men, people room the LGBT community, plus Hispanics, and occasionally black folks. I recently received an e-mail from an Asian woman who praised my blog for not being misogynistic, and not being exclusionary towards hapa's.

      So I'm proud that I have created a space that Asians of varying experiences and attitudes feel as though their experiences are reflected in what I write. Sorry, but my priority just isn't to uphold the self-image of whiny white dudes like yourself - I'm sure there plenty of blog spaces where you can go to visit that might make you feel better about yourself, but that just isn't my focus.

      Now, that is not to say that white men have nothing to learn from what I write. In fact, the opposite is true. I hope that the majority of white folks who I think rae good-hearted and genuine (people of all races in fact) - male or female - who have a heart-felt interest in understanding the experiences of Asian people in the US might find my writings to be of value. Those people are welcome and will find a host open and honest about what he believes.

      But it is interesting that this conversation is taking place on a Korean blog - I have had several e-mails from various people (one of them a woman) - who have expressed a desire and asked for permission to translate my work into Korean, so there are some who feel as though my work has something of value to offer men and women in Asia itself. More potential deflation for your fragile and flaccid self-image perhaps.

      Plus, stop trying to make my writing seem like an attack on Asian women's dating choices - you know full well that it is not. Not that your silly opinions are of concern to me, it just makes you look pathetic. That is the least significant area of interest for me, and my attitude is that the whole discussion brings nothing new to the table. I simply could not care less who Asian women date, and don't think any less of them for dating outside their race. Why would I, I have done exactly that?

      So once again, please stop playing the victim card, it is not all about race and white victimhood. My writing is direct and reflects what I honestly believe, and is simply expressing as simply as is possible, the Asian-American experience.

      But I suppose I should be in some way flattered by your obsession with my writing - you have interrupted your not-sad-at-all-life to troll my blog and cyber-stalk me. Sorry, that won't make me prioritize uplifting you fragile image problems.

      Anyways, try not to be so sad, it's not all about you.

      Delete
    33. A lot of words there, Mr. Efsaneyim, yet none of them address your fucked-up attitude towards Koreans.

      I read your blog for five minutes. That was enough for me.

      Anyway, it's interesting that you keep calling me a "victim." Those two black kids in the locker room were unsuccessful in their attempt to liberate me of my wallet. Punks like you who talk trash to me get it right back in their face, often with superior intellectual firepower instead of weird, hateful fictional screeds about their opponent's personal lives.

      Indeed, in a site dominated by Asian nationalists of various stripes, does it strike you as very victim-like for me to come in here and more than hold my own as a white guy? Don't you think a true victim would either post anonymously or simply run away, neither of which I do here myself?

      My reading of the above passage from your blog indicates to me that you are threatened not only by white guys, but by big black cocks and women who just aren't that into you. In other words, your constant talk about me being a "victim" strikes me as a classic case of projection more than anything else!

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    34. I forgot to mention that that blog post was reposted on a couple of black-owned websites to much appreciation and chuckles. Plus, history has shown that the more people try to dissuade and discourage oppositional points of view, the more sympathy those oppositional viewpoints receive? It's like trying to stop dog from getting to a bowl of meat - no matter how hard you try, they will step up their efforts until they get past you. Censorship through social pressure is the tool of the weak and fearful.

      Delete
    35. Baeksu

      "A lot of words there, Mr. Efsaneyim, yet none of them address your fucked-up attitude towards Koreans."

      Now you are just being sad. My blog has a few posts where I specifically speak up for the Koreans and their experiences in the US. You are a sad, sad, sad, man. But don't worry, I'm not you will be seeing Korean translations of my posts at a computer near you quite soon. Let's let Korean readers decide for themselves my work is about. They don't need a sad victim like yourself to interpret the world for them.

      Delete
    36. "I forgot to mention that that blog post was reposted on a couple of black-owned websites to much appreciation and chuckles."

      Well, of course it was, since you put them at the top of some imaginary, racialized sexual hierarchy. Very flattering for them, I'm sure.

      I think you need to refine your thesis, however, because it hardly applies to me. I don't speak "Ebonics" and don't wear oversized NBA jerseys or low-slung pants -- though I certainly have seen quite a bit of that among the many Korean-Americans I have seen in Korea, and quite a few younger Chinese men in China as well!

      Delete
    37. baeksu

      You small minded man. I haven't put anyone at the top of any hierarchy - what are you talking about? Nothing applies to you because not everything is about you and your white victim mentality - thankfully, you don't speak for white men. My guess is that some white dudes cringe when they read your whiny, victim posts. Surely you are not stupid enough to hold me responsible for creating America's racial stereotypes?

      Delete
    38. "Surely you are not stupid enough to hold me responsible for creating America's racial stereotypes?"

      In the passage quoted above, you claim that African-American men are at the top of a sexual hierarchy in the US. Yet that is your own paranoid and fantastic delusion, rather than an "objective" description of reality. It's just not that simple, chum.

      Why you keep calling me "sad" and a "victim" just because I disagree with you? It's actually quite sad that you only seem able to handle people who agree with you. In fact, that sounds exactly like someone with a rather weak sense of confidence and self-worth -- the very definition of a victim, in other words.

      Keep on excreting the dregs, my friend, because like I said: Each time you open your trap, you discredit yourself even further.

      Delete
    39. Well I think that to any rational observer, you'r need to pressure people to prioritize the upholding of your sorry self-image when asked to consider the possibility that the abuse of Asian kids in American schools may be fostered by American culture, is a clear example of your victim mentality. And that is sad. But I just don't care enough whether you disagree with me or not. It just isn't important to me.

      My credibility was never at stake, and your opinion of my credibility is simply not of value to me. Like I said, it's better for objective visitors to my site decide for themselves what I am about - they don't need sad, small-minded, man like yourself with a fragile self-image, to tell them what to think. And if you surround yourself with such people, then their opinions are of less value to me as your own.

      But I'm still not responsible for America's racial stereotypes. I'm off to work.

      Delete
    40. "Well I think that to any rational observer, you'r need to pressure people to prioritize the upholding of your sorry self-image when asked to consider the possibility that the abuse of Asian kids in American schools may be fostered by American culture, is a clear example of your victim mentality."

      No, what really happened is that you made up some bullshit number (70% of Asian-American kids bullied at school), and I corrected you with data from the American Psychological Association (17%, the lowest number among all ethnic groups).

      Rational? Objective? Why do you keep throwing around big words that you clearly do not understand yourself?

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    41. Baeksu

      Please stop embarrassing yourself. I threw out a number off the top of my head, from memory, that was close to the actual figure, but you are too sad to understand that even if it were only 1% of Asian children who suffer culturally fostered abuse from their peers then that is still an issue. You poor man, you just can't get past your sorry sense of victimhood. But I'm content to allow those interested to investigate the degree of bullying of Asian kids themselves. Your word just isn't good. Now, really, I have to go.

      Delete
    42. "I threw out a number off the top of my head, from memory, that was close to the actual figure, but you are too sad to understand that even if it were only 1% of Asian children who suffer culturally fostered abuse from their peers then that is still an issue."

      Sorry, but "70%" is not even close to "17%".

      In any case, my original point was that just about everyone has experience bullying in school at one point or another, so its not like Asian-American kids are targeted more than other racial or ethnic groups. In fact, they are targeted the least. From the above report:

      "Fewer Asian-American students (18 percent) reported being bullied at school or cyberbullied than did white students (35 percent), African-American students (31 percent) or Latino students (28 percent)."

      If you care so much about kids bullied in school, where are your blog posts about white, black or Latino kids who are bullied? What's that you say? You don't have any? Why not?

      Like I said, give and take, my friend, give and take.

      Delete
    43. Like I say, I invite those who are interested to make their own inquiries - your word just is not good. I don't buıy your new found compassion for the plight of minority kids - I tried to bring it up, but you change the subject back to your own sad life. Besides, in case you haven't got it yet, my writing is about the experience of Asians in the US - it is not a moral dilemma to focus on that. It is a moral dilemma, though, to try to divert attention away from those Asian kids whose bullying may be fostered by American culture to your own need for reinforcement of your fragile self-image.

      Like I said, changing the subject is not give and take - and neither is pressuring people to prioritize the upholding of your own weaknesses. And no, Asian kids are not targeted the least. I think you know that.

      Delete
    44. And your faux concern for the plight of minority kids is not very convincing.

      You are wasting your time trying to put me on the defensive about my blog space - I have nothing to be ashamed about. I stand by my mission and my writings. Sorry, but upholding your image is just not on my agenda.

      In fact, please post more excerpts from my blog - the increased traffic is appreciated, and objective people who aren't carrying a chip on their shoulder from their sense of victimhood like yourself are sure to discover some value in what I write.

      It is obvious that you keep trying to deflect attention away from the fact that you keep trying to prioritize your own petty racial grievances at the expense of meaningful discussion on the possibility of culture fostered anti-Asian bullying in schools. No, I don't take you or your supposed concern for minority kids seriously.

      Anyways, I'll leave to scream shrilly into hyperspace after my e-shadow, as a testament to your joyful life.

      Delete
    45. Dude, bullying sucks but I have not advertised myself as a champion of those who are bullied as you have done here, so I'm not the one who needs to be held to a higher moral standard. And frankly, for someone who resorts so frequently to abusive, racially charged language, I really don't think you're going to convince anyone here that you have much moral authority on the subject at all.

      "And no, Asian kids are not targeted the least."

      Translation: "Even in the face of hard scientific data, I'd still rather make shit up."

      I think the common term for this is magical thinking. So much for "objectivity," lol.

      Delete
  25. "Nonetheless, I am bothered by this trend, not on a personal level but more on a macro level. Don't know why it bothers me but it does."

    To Pete: You have nothing to feel embarrassed about. Your feelings are absolutely healthy and normal, and stem from a recognition that the "trend" is a symptom of "sickness" among Asian American women specifically, and Asian Americans broadly. Indeed, it is those that feel nothing or hide behind a woman's prerogative to choose that have mental issues.

    TK's diagnosis is accurate but partial. If "white" is the default like oxygen is to our lungs, then Asian men are poisonous carbon monoxide. For many Asian American women, Asian men are the last things they want to get a whiff of when they breathe in.

    So what's the prescription? TK says we should stay alert and combat it, but how? He calls us to be cognizant of the many moving parts in our complex world, but what does that mean exactly? The author appears frozen, scared that he might break a gear or prick himself with needles.

    Some caution is warranted. We can't push back too hard lest we get eggs in our faces. It's also pointless to appeal to kindness. In love women are cruel and will not respond to men who ask for pity. Our only tool may be the cold hammer of intellectual honesty.

    Next time a prickly Asian American woman declares that it is her preference that moves her to date that non-Asian guy and avoid the Asian guy, call bull on her free-will. Take the moment as an opportunity to bring light to dark corners, and coolly and didactically suggest that it is probably not preference so-called that informs her decisions but internal racism against the face that sadly stares back at her in the mirror every dreary morning.

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  26. GST, I couldn't help but burst out laughing. It is like you were traumatized by a dating experience in the past.

    So what is it when an Asian American women date both Asian and white guys for years but end up marrying a white guy? I ask because this is the case with a most of my friends who ended up marrying white guys. I dated both and ended up marrying a Korean-American guy. Many of my Korean-Am, Chinese-Am, and Japanese-Am friends dated both and ended up marrying a white guy. Interestingly, a couple of my Chinese friends started dating white guys after dating Korean-American guys who said they couldn't marry them because they had to marry a Korean-American girl.

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    1. "So what is it when an Asian American women date both Asian and white guys for years but end up marrying a white guy? I ask because this is the case with a most of my friends who ended up marrying white guys. I dated both and ended up marrying a Korean-American guy. Many of my Korean-Am, Chinese-Am, and Japanese-Am friends dated both and ended up marrying a white guy. Interestingly, a couple of my Chinese friends started dating white guys after dating Korean-American guys who said they couldn't marry them because they had to marry a Korean-American girl."

      On the face of it, it all sounds very innocent and benign.

      But once again, it's not the majority that is the concern but the loudmouthed minority that leave behind a taint that ruin even the innocent and benign.

      Delete
  27. GST, I couldn't disagree more with your comment "I think that in time, if/when the number of Korean citizens with foreign ancestry reaches a tipping point, you will be "seen" as full fledged member of Korean society." There will be a backlash. You give Korean society too much credit.

    US is much more racially tolerant than Korea. Considering how diverse it is, I think the US is one of the most racially tolerant societies in the world along with UK and Australia.

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    1. "There will be a backlash. You give Korean society too much credit."

      Unlike the West, racial ideology is not intrinsic to Korean society nor to Korean traditions.

      I don't see a backlash unless immigrants are given special political/work privileges over natives.

      Personally, I am not pro-immigration. Liberal immigration is a failure everywhere and Korea would be stupid to follow the example of Europe and America.

      "US is much more racially tolerant than Korea. Considering how diverse it is, I think the US is one of the most racially tolerant societies in the world along with UK and Australia."

      Only on the surface. Underneath the oily adipose tissue, racism circulates throughout the body America from its brain to its heart and to every vital organ.

      America is more PC than Korea, but PC is a poor counterfeit for racial blindness.

      If America is the model society you envision for Korea (as some apparently do), you need to get your head examined.

      Delete
    2. "Unlike the West, racial ideology is not intrinsic to Korean society nor to Korean traditions."

      Now that is the funniest thing I have read all day.

      Delete
    3. "Now that is the funniest thing I have read all day"

      Perhaps you're conflating race with ethnicity, tribe and ancestry.

      Delete
    4. "Perhaps you're conflating race with ethnicity, tribe and ancestry."

      Tell that to my dictionary:

      "race: noun

      a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group : we Scots were a bloodthirsty race then."

      Delete
    5. You've defined "race" into something that is perfectly good and benign.

      Our unique heritage: culture, food, language, history, family. These are all good things.

      We should celebrate and cherish them.

      Delete
    6. "We should celebrate and cherish them."

      I agree. The problem is, human nature being what it is, many people tend to create hierarchies based on racial, ethnic and cultural differences.

      Anyway, I find these bottomless, self-conscious discussions about racial and ethnic identity rather wearisome after a while. I'd rather listen to a good rock 'n' roll tune, read an interesting novel or see a cool movie. Anyone see "The East?' I thought it was great. Perhaps if we all stopped emphasizing our differences so much, we could all see who our common enemy actually is. Come to think of it, you can't help but wonder if some sort of clever, divide-and-rule strategy is at play here.

      In short, I'm outta here.

      Delete
    7. "I agree. The problem is, human nature being what it is, many people tend to create hierarchies based on racial, ethnic and cultural differences."

      "Race", as in a people who are members of a particular tribe or who share a culture, is natural, inevitable and good.

      From this definition, we could say we are the "American race". And frankly, if we saw ourselves that way, the toxic forms of racism would disappear.

      What is toxic? The taxonomy of peoples into 4 or 5 arbitrary groups and somehow assigning moral significance to these categories, even suggesting alliances between members against other members based simply on phenotype.

      In Korea, there is the notion of family or "race", but it's the "Korean race" (or more accurately, ethnicity). Is this bad? I say good, because to the extent families evolve and take on new members, membership is fluid and open to everyone. Traditionally, Koreans are those whose ancestry goes back to the Korean homeland, but Koreans didn't sprout from the peninsula. Our ancestors came from somewhere outside. Ultimately, then, being Korean is in you heart and in the social relations you build in the community. This means anyone, if they embrace the people and heritage of Korea, can be "Korean", over time.

      "Anyway, I find these bottomless, self-conscious discussions about racial and ethnic identity rather wearisome after a while."

      Yes, these kinds of discussions are downers but like in-laws demand periodic visitations.

      Delete
    8. Korea is pretty racist to non-Koreans. Except for Whites. Many times, Koreans will treat Whites as good as, if not better than, other Koreans.

      Think about it. Could a Korean person who can't speak English, knows little about American culture and customs, and has little job qualifications come to the U.S. and get a relatively comfortable job teaching Korean? How would he be received socially? Would he become an object of fascination, a practical guest of honour, in most social situations? Would Americans associate his race and ethnicity with wealth, sophistication, glamour, etc?

      Of course not. He's probably get called a FOB or gook and told to go back to his country. Maybe he'd get a job as a sweeper at a grocery store. Yet when White people, especially White men, go to Korea, they are treated very well. While they won't be accepted as true Koreans and get some stares (some of which will be of admiration, btw), they will still be treated as guests of honours. Sure, some grumpy old ajushis may dislike their presence, but Korean society as a whole will be quite nice to them.

      So yes, Korea is less tolerant than the U.S., as long as we're talking about non-Korean and non-White groups.

      Delete
    9. In short, I'm outta here.

      Four days ago, these words were written: http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2013/10/excreting-dregs.html?showComment=1381372221477#c2808132553731629564

      Didn't happen, unfortunately: http://askakorean.blogspot.com/2013/10/excreting-dregs.html?showComment=1381702448653#c4677263003164466783

      Delete
  28. Wait, I am not done yet, lol. Many of you have explicitly said or implied that only self hating Asian women would like white men and that these Asian women are so impressionable as to be brainwashed by the white media's portrayal of Asian men because in reality, Asian men are just so perfect. And then you claim you're not chauvenistic or ethnocentric. Many of you have managed to both insult white men and Asian women on this blog. And you wonder why some Asian women can't stand Asian men.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Many of you have explicitly said or implied that only self hating Asian women would like white men and that these Asian women are so impressionable as to be brainwashed by the white media's portrayal of Asian men because in reality, Asian men are just so perfect. And then you claim you're not chauvenistic or ethnocentric. Many of you have managed to both insult white men and Asian women on this blog. And you wonder why some Asian women can't stand Asian men."

      Appeal to compassion and logic, and it all falls to the ground.

      Women like you are more or less incorrigible. It's 2013 and the whole world sees what's happening and laughs at us. And still, the Helens of the world say, "What's the problem? I don't like Asian men. It's my preference as a woman. We all have preferences and this is mine". The Helens are still stuck in circa 1995.

      Delete
  29. Not this Helen. This Helen is married to a Korean American dude. I am merely defending my sisters' right to choose and throwing out the possibility that there may be other reasons for Asian women liking white men besides hating herself and her race. I see plenty of hot Korean guys dating white and Korean women. If some Asian guys are dateless, it's because there's something wrong with them, not because there is some worldwide conspiracy to oppress Asian men.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "I am merely defending my sisters' right to choose and throwing out the possibility that there may be other reasons"

      Don't defend your "sisters". They don't deserve a defense. "To defend" implies that they are being attacked, but for years, it is they that have conducted a one-sided civil war against their own. Good hearted Asian men had defended their sisters' "choices" for years before finally coming to realize that theirs is a condition borne of pathology.

      Delete
    2. It's not so black and white. It's not "All Asian women who date/marry White men are self-haters," nor is it "All Asian men who complain about racism are dateless losers." There's obviously a mix of both.

      Can we both acknowledge that Asian men face a level of desexualization in America that amps up the difficulty mode in the dating game? And we can both acknowledge that there are lots of Asian women who happen to be with non-Asian men for non-racist reasons.

      Delete
    3. "Can we both acknowledge..."

      Acknowledged. But it's not Asian men that you need to convince. Asian men are pretty fair about this.

      "And we can both acknowledge that there are lots of Asian women who happen to be with non-Asian men for non-racist reasons."

      When we're drowning in negative stereotypes, your personal virtue is a moot point.

      Delete
  30. It also has a lot to do with media and it starts at a really young age. PoC women grow up watching American media where the Asian male is even more invisible than Asian women. You can do a brief experiment and watch tv for a few hours. You will see countless images of Asian women with white men, over and over and over and over but never see an Asian couple. Isn't that a bit odd? Considering most Asians still date other Asians, you'd think we'd see that sometimes?
    You see white couples, black couples all the time but try to think of a time you've ever seen an Asian couple. It's deliberate.
    Asian women seemingly have roles with agency but it is only in context that they are an accessory to a white guy.
    Just look at mainstream media.
    1.Elementary: sure Lucy Liu is in a cool role, seemingly has agency but the message still is, an Asian women with agency does not want an Asian man, she is instead a Chinese female sidekick to a British man. (I won't even get into the colonial tinge there).
    2. The Hangover: Jamie Chung marrying the white guy, while the Asian male counterpart is ....Ken Jeong.
    3. Star Trek Into the Darkness: both Kirk and Spock have PoC women. Spock is with a black female while Kirk is seen in bed with two Asian women.
    4.Malcolm in the Middle: the older son marries an Asian woman.
    5.Scott Pilgrim: an Asian girl drools over the main character white guy.

    6. Mako in Pacific Rim: let me peek through and drool over the white guy again. *rolls eyes
    7. Harry Potter, Cho Chang. Harry wants to go to the dance with Cho Chang but she's already with another white guy, he instead goes to the dance with TWO Indian girls instead lol hmmm, British guy with Chinese and Indian female love interests (also colonial tinge because the conqueror always has the spoils of war i.e. the native women of said colonized country, white men having free reign over PoC women.
    It's seriously non stop, in commercials, in the background in tv shows, in main characters, all the time.

    The clever thing is, when media does this, it subconsciously influences in such a strong way, that girls sometimes grow up thinking 'I'm just attracted to white guys and not Asian guys, no reason, it's just a choice" in a way they are not realizing that it is a MANUFACTURED CONSENT. They don't know why they feel that way, they just do.

    Let's take a look at some Asian male main characters:

    1. Chow Yun Fat in the Replacement Killers: Mira Sorvino could have easily been portrayed as pursuing her attraction to him but they never even get a kiss scene.

    2. Jet Li in Romeo Must Die: Aaliyah and him have some romance alluded to, but again, not even a single kiss scene.

    3. Rain in Ninja Assassin: again, Rain all ripped and main character, never gets a single kiss scene.

    So basically, Asian women are allowed to navigate their characters through the world with romantic agency but is never ever seen choosing an Asian guy.

    Asian men are either Bobby Lee, Ken Jeong types or buff chop socky karate guys that are neutered and given ZERO romantic agency.

    So when girls grow up watching that, it's pretty obvious what becomes instilled.

    I guess there's Steve Yeun in Walking Dead now.

    But notice that in all these examples, there's still ZERO Asian couples. How can that be a coincidence? tbh I think it's a deliberate motive with a specific agenda.

    As an Asian female, I've mostly dated Asian guys (but recognize now that I had a skewed view of Asian guys that influenced my opinion of them which created a bit of a bias which was unconscious). It was only after time, by carefully decolonizing my mind where I can now recognize the problematic thinking.

    p.s. I only date people from my own heritage now, mainly because of culture, language and heritage that I do not want to lose and want to pass to my children.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "You will see countless images of Asian women with white men, over and over and over and over but never see an Asian couple. Isn't that a bit odd?"

      Remember the iPhone ads featuring the Asian woman with the black guy and white guy? Or the Facebook splash page with the Asian girl and white guy?

      When the duplicity of these kinds of ads are pointed out, even many Asians brush off the concerns. Who cares, they say. "Race doesn't matter".

      But of course it matters when the Asian male is always curiously absent. But Asian women were loving it, eating it up like caviar. "Alas, finally, we have been accepted into the mainstream!", they probably thought.

      "Considering most Asians still date other Asians, you'd think we'd see that sometimes?"

      Today, thankfully, we're seeing more Asian/Asian couples. But what should be the norm feels oddly abnormal. This is how warped we are.

      "The clever thing is, when media does this, it subconsciously influences in such a strong way, that girls sometimes grow up thinking 'I'm just attracted to white guys and not Asian guys, no reason, it's just a choice" in a way they are not realizing that it is a MANUFACTURED CONSENT. They don't know why they feel that way, they just do."

      Yes, the relationship is normalized; and inversely, what is normal becomes abnormal.

      Yunjin Kim of Lost once appeared on the The View. On the show, she was asked by one of the hosts what kind of men she liked. When she answered that she preferred Korean men, the progressive women of The View stared at her quizzically.

      Yunjin Kim is the only Asian American female celebrity I have ever seen on mainstream television or print to state that she preferred Asian men.

      "As an Asian female, I've mostly dated Asian guys (but recognize now that I had a skewed view of Asian guys that influenced my opinion of them which created a bit of a bias which was unconscious). It was only after time, by carefully decolonizing my mind where I can now recognize the problematic thinking."

      Good on you. Recognition is the first step but sadly even that many Asian women fail to do.

      Delete
    2. Lol, you've assembled a rather selective list here, to say the least. Ever seen the Harold and Kumar films, or the Fast and Furious franchise? Not exactly small-time movies, and actors John Cho and Sung Kang, both Korean-American, hook up with some pretty hot women in them. And what about or Daniel Henney Ken Watanabe, who have starred in a number of international productions with assorted love interests of their own? Sorry, but you can't just cherry pick films that prove your point.

      In any case, Asian-Americans make up just 5% of the population in the US, so it's more a numbers game than any big conspiracy. If you have an Asian-American man playing a leading role in a US film, it might explicitly appeal to 5% of the Asian-American population, but much less so to the 75% of American viewers who are white. As a film producer, you generally go with leading actors with the widest possible appeal, and 75% represents a whole lot more ticket sales than 5% does. Political correctness or insidious conspiracies have little to do with it; Hollywood is strictly a business, and the bottom line is all that really counts.

      Here's a little thought experiment: How many Korean, Japanese or Chinese audience viewers would want to see domestically produced movies with white or black men playing the romantic lead, opposite local female characters? Not a whole lot, I'd imagine. Yet if you compare Hollywood's track record, where actors like John Cho and Sung Kang have established strong names for themselves, I'd say it holds us pretty well -- even if there is room for improvement, which is only a matter of time, of course.

      Delete
    3. Baeksu: "Political correctness or insidious conspiracies have little to do with it; Hollywood is strictly a business, and the bottom line is all that really counts."

      Come on, nepotism and political correctness are legendary in Hollywood and the media.

      Jewish actors and sons/daughters of former actors do not dominate film/television because they're all beautiful and ooze charisma.

      Blacks do not appear on every TV show and commercial because white America loves African Americans.

      Being given a "chance" counts a great deal in entertainment. And with little dispute, Asian male actors are given few chances relative to black, hispanic, and white.

      Can an Asian male actor play a leading role? If black or hispanic actors can, then emphatically yes.

      I forget his name, but before WWII broke out, there was apparently a leading film actor in Hollywood of Japanese descent. American women were allegedly gaga over him.

      Delete
    4. If Hollywood producers found an Asian-American actor who made them fat bank, I have no doubt that his name would be up in lights right away.

      I don't know how to state this any more plainly: Hollywood is strictly a business, and its only aim is to make lots of money. It really doesn't care about making minority interests or pressure groups happy, but then again, it doesn't really give a fuck about me, either. All it wants is my cold hard cash!

      Delete
    5. I agree that Hollywood is all about business. But mixed in with that sentiment are doses of political correctness, nepotism, and other agendas. Surely, you don't deny that? In the end, projects do have to make money, but being "given a chance" is very important, too.

      I agree that if there was an Asian American actor who could guarantee a blockbuster, every studio would sign him up. But it's hard to be a star if your aspirations of stardom are stillborn.

      Delete
    6. "But it's hard to be a star if your aspirations of stardom are stillborn."

      Sorry, but like I said, it's simply a matter of demographics. 75% is more than 5%. Hard to argue with that, isn't it?

      Here are two more practical points to consider:

      1. How many "Tiger Moms" would let their precious sons drop out of the rat race and risk everything on the impossible dream of becoming a successful actor or movie star? Immigrant families tend to work hard and sacrifice quite a lot for their children, so there is much less incentive for those children to throw that all away in pursuit of some ephemeral dream, especially among men who are expected to be the breadwinner in more traditional cultures. In effect, this is also a simple numbers game, isn't it?

      2. Hollywood movies today are made for the global marketplace. Certain issues that might resonate among American audiences, such as the complexities of racial politics and identity, are of less interest to many other audiences around the world. Simply put: Global audiences want bland leading characters and rather bland storylines, and Hollywood producers usually give them exactly that these days. Why is Tom Cruise one of the top leading Hollywood men of the past few decades? Because he's quite bland, not a very good actor and has a winning smile -- the perfect Hollywood product, in other words. And that's what other Asian-American actors aspire to? Lol!

      Delete
    7. I think that the argument explaining the lack of Asian faces in Hollywood movies as a profit/loss issue is pretty compelling. It doesn't, however, explain the dearth of Asian actors in secondary roles - prominent supporting roles, or even secondary or tertiary co-starring roles which have less of an influence over the bottom line. It could be a simple matter of Asian actors not having the same kind of networking structure - due, perhaps, to limited opportunities. That is, most casting calls for Asian actors may be seeking them for roles that are typecast. It warrants further inquiry.

      Delete
    8. Baeksu:"Sorry, but like I said, it's simply a matter of demographics. 75% is more than 5%. Hard to argue with that, isn't it?"

      The overrepresentaion of blacks in the media puts a wrench in what should be a logical conclusion.

      "1. How many "Tiger Moms" would let their precious sons drop out of the rat race and risk everything on the impossible dream of becoming a successful actor or movie star Immigrant families tend to work hard and sacrifice quite a lot for their children, so there is much less incentive for those children to throw that all away in pursuit of some ephemeral dream, especially among men who are expected to be the breadwinner in more traditional cultures. In effect, this is also a simple numbers game, isn't it?"

      True, these are factors that dissuade Asians from trying.

      But the same environment is at play in Korea as well where Kpop artists and entertainers are being churned out like daily Korean soap operas.

      Notwithstanding all the internal barriers, I think what remains most compelling to me is what those in the industry say: Hollywood just isn't interested. And there are few pressures to put Asian men in token roles as well. Compare Asians with other minorities and you'll see that something doesn't square.

      "Why is Tom Cruise one of the top leading Hollywood men of the past few decades? Because he's quite bland, not a very good actor and has a winning smile"

      Cruise isn't so popular these days, but I have to disagree. I think Cruise is charming and charismatic.

      I don't think there is as yet any younger viable replacements for the likes of Cruise and Pitt.

      Delete
    9. Ben: "I think that the argument explaining the lack of Asian faces in Hollywood movies as a profit/loss issue is pretty compelling."

      True, except blacks break the mold.

      Blacks are overrepresented in the media and this overrepresentation is not motivated by profit alone.

      "It doesn't, however, explain the dearth of Asian actors in secondary roles - prominent supporting roles, or even secondary or tertiary co-starring roles which have less of an influence over the bottom line."

      True. Blacks playing secondary roles was cliche for decades before finally taking on leading roles in film.

      "It could be a simple matter of Asian actors not having the same kind of networking structure - due, perhaps, to limited opportunities."

      Anecdotal evidence suggests that the opportunities just do not exist and this has knock on effects.

      Delete
    10. Why leave out Harold & Kumar? One the most popular movies featuring Asian main characters with white/latino women? Or Rick Yune in Fast and the Furious. Those are cute/hot Asian guys that any women would love.

      Speaking of Harold & Kumar in which John Cho's character takes forever asking a hot girl out, I am curious as to how many Asian men ask white/latino/black women out? I would guess not many. This is pretty funny. http://winton118.wordpress.com/

      My personal experience has been that white/black/Latino men are a lot more forward than Asian men. It could be that Asian men have a chip on their shoulder because of how they are perceived by the media/society, which makes them less confident in their ability to appeal to the ladies. Whatever the case, women like confident men who ask women out. It could be that your victim mentality may be your biggest enemy.

      Delete
    11. Helen: "My personal experience has been that white/black/Latino men are a lot more forward than Asian men."

      And this is necessarily a good thing? You're desire is that your future son treats women like the stereotypical black guy who has 5 kids with 3 different women?

      I think there is a loose correlation between "being forward" and chauvanism. It's emotionally harder to take women seriously as human beings and go up to a dozen like they aren't a dime a dozen. There is a process of objectification when you're hitting on every girl in the room.

      But as a girl, you wouldn't understand that. You want to be treated equally and the door opened and your meals paid for, too.

      "Whatever the case, women like confident men who ask women out. It could be that your victim mentality may be your biggest enemy."

      Asian men have the least victim mentality. We mind our own business and do our jobs. Some misguided among us even support institutional policies harmful to ourselves.

      Between Asian men and women, if there is a victim among us, it's the latter. Western literature is replete with the whining of Asian women.

      Delete
    12. Lol, you've assembled a rather selective list here, to say the least. Ever seen the Harold and Kumar films, or the Fast and Furious franchise? Not exactly small-time movies, and actors John Cho and Sung Kang, both Korean-American, hook up with some pretty hot women in them. And what about or Daniel Henney Ken Watanabe, who have starred in a number of international productions with assorted love interests of their own? Sorry, but you can't just cherry pick films that prove your point.


      I think I gave a broad list from mainstream film and tv. We can stack the Asian females versus Asian male representations and see how it goes, I assure you it will turn out the way I've mentioned. tbh most teenage girls wouldn't find Harold and Kumar particularly sexy, not when there's Taylor Lautner and Ryan Gosling to drool over. Their roles are clearly cooler and as shallow as that sounds, this is how a lot of young girls behave. Fast and Furious aren't the main characters mostly white? I enjoyed Fast and Furious Tokyo Drift where they gave the Asian guy one scene where he wooes the girl, oh thank you for that one wow. How many years ago was that?
      If you notice it's still white men in PoC countries like its their newfound playground. That main character was there because he was sent to Tokyo to live with his father, a U.S. Navy serviceman (colonial tinge). Daniel Henney? I think that's also touchy because he's half Korean. So for the outside eye, they're essentially emblematizing the more white Asian, like that show Sullivan and Sons. What's wrong, is a 100% Asian looking man THAT hard to accept and showcase with some romantic agency? There were clearly chances in movies like Rain in Ninja Assassin? Why the deliberate neutering?

      In any case, Asian-Americans make up just 5% of the population in the US, so it's more a numbers game than any big conspiracy. If you have an Asian-American man playing a leading role in a US film, it might explicitly appeal to 5% of the Asian-American population, but much less so to the 75% of American viewers who are white. As a film producer, you generally go with leading actors with the widest possible appeal, and 75% represents a whole lot more ticket sales than 5% does. Political correctness or insidious conspiracies have little to do with it; Hollywood is strictly a business, and the bottom line is all that really counts.Here's a little thought experiment: How many Korean, Japanese or Chinese audience viewers would want to see domestically produced movies with white or black men playing the romantic lead, opposite local female characters? Not a whole lot, I'd imagine.


      Well, first off, this isn't something just with leading roles in films. I'm talking even on Tv shows in the background, in the crowds, in the extras, you wont even see it there, it's uncanny. Tv shows like Glee or Degrassi High, surely it cant be that hard to show a cool Asian guy that gets some girls or seen dating and being a part of everything like everyone else? In a part of a commercial even? Cool Asian guys are out there in rl you know, I know quite a few lol Why can't we even see one Asian couple in the background in a crowd? Try to look yourself. There's white, brown, black couples all the time but never Asian couples. The Asian guy is invisible or never given any romantic storylines, even while others do (i.e. the Asian girl). The fact that they do not want to see that, is a clear indication of their racism? So then, Asian women in sexualized roles with white men is alright, but for Asian men it's illogical to want to be represented? They need to change and should change.

      Delete
    13. The Asian Man is the only man who can be placed in the most famous love story of all time and only get a platonic hug. LOL

      Right now on Broadway, there's an interracial Romeo & Juliet, with a white Romeo and a black Juliet. I wonder if white Romeo will also just get a hug, or perhaps a peck on the cheek? Stay tuned!

      Delete
  31. "The overrepresentaion of blacks in the media puts a wrench in what should be a logical conclusion."

    Blacks have been around a lot longer in the US, and are more closely enmeshed in the culture. They also make up around 14% of the population, or nearly three times that of Asian-Americans. Anyway, I see quite a few Hollywood movies and wouldn't say that they are "overrepresented" in them beyond their actual demographic numbers. Certainly they tend to dominate certain sports. Anyway, black culture in the US has often traditionally played the role of the unleashed "id" to the uptight white "superego," which is one major reason why it has appealed to many whites over the years. If anything, Asian culture is, broadly and somewhat crudely speaking, even more uptight than white culture, with its traditional emphasis on studying and working hard, so it's going to need to find some other niche allure or attribute to ingratiate itself with the dominant white culture in the US. We often want what we don't have. What do Asian-Americans have that white Americans would want? That's the true key to wider crossover appeal.

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    1. "Blacks have been around a lot longer in the US, and are more closely enmeshed in the culture. They also make up around 14% of the population, or nearly three times that of Asian-Americans. Anyway, I see quite a few Hollywood movies and wouldn't say that they are "overrepresented" in them beyond their actual demographic numbers."

      I agree with everything except the part about not being overrepresented. Of course they are.

      I think there was once a survey/study of blacks in the media. People were asked, based on what they saw on TV and movies, what percentage of America blacks comprised. I think the average answer was somewhere between 40 and 50%.

      "Anyway, black culture in the US has often traditionally played the role of the unleashed "id" to the uptight white "superego," which is one major reason why it has appealed to many whites over the years. If anything, Asian culture is, broadly and somewhat crudely speaking, even more uptight than white culture, with its traditional emphasis on studying and working hard, so it's going to need to find some other niche allure or attribute to ingratiate itself with the dominant white culture in the US. We often want what we don't have. What do Asian-Americans have that white Americans would want? That's the true key to wider crossover appeal."

      On paper, you are rational and sound. What do Asians have to offer Americana besides their sexually willing, compliant women?

      I'm not sure. But I believe what's on "paper" can be very misleading inasmuch as it only reflects current realities, not possibilities.

      Based on paper, what could Korea offer the world in the field of music and movies? My answer, as a kid, would be nothing. Today, the reality is very different. To the surprise of many, especially myself, modern Korea dominates greater Asia and its art is washing over onto American and European shores. And for the first time, as an adult, I've actually come to appreciate this silly thing called K-pop.

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    3. baeksu

      Those are some odd claims - I don't believe that white people are as backward as you want to believe.

      It isn't a question of what white people want, that isn't even on the table, and the idea that there is no openness to Asians is racial ignorance on your part. Jeremy Lin, Manny Pacquiao, and PSY, have all shown that Asians can and are embraced by mainstream white viewers and fans.

      White folks just aren't as monolithically closed to Asians or their cultures as you presume. That is just a rationalization.

      Delete
    4. Mr. Efsaneyim please stop mischaracterizing my arguments and putting words into my mouth that I have not said.

      Magical thinking indeed.

      Delete
    5. "What do Asians have to offer Americana besides their sexually willing, compliant women?"

      That is not what I said, nor is it what I think.

      Jeez, the level of discourse here is seriously wanting. Well, this is a blog: I guess you get what you pay for.

      Delete
    6. "Mr. Efsaneyim please stop mischaracterizing my arguments and putting words into my mouth that I have not said."

      You said that it was a question of white people want from Asian-Americans, and I say it isn't. That question is not even on the table. "Crossovers" have already occurred, but it is just backward thinking to suggest - as you clearly did - that it is about wanting something from Asians that is the key to crossover appeal.

      I'm saying that you have it all wrong about what white America would want and what it would take for Asians to be "culturally" embraced. The examples I gave simply shows that being very good at something is a barrier breaker - regardless of the idea that there must be some great "thing" to be wanted by white Americans. That's nonsense.

      Delete
    7. First of all, I did not say that white people are "backward." The term I used was "uptight," and I used it with very clear qualification.

      Second of all, a lot of people in this thread are complaining about the dominant white culture in America being relatively closed to Asian-Americans, especially Asian-American men, and rife with stereotypes that are often restrictive and limiting in nature.

      What you are too small-minded to grasp is that like advertising, much of popular cultural is aspirational rather than strictly representational. People embrace popular-culture productions not because of what they say, but because of what their viewers, listeners and readers think they say about their own self-image. It's a subtle point that you're probably too obtuse to understand, and which is why you're an obscure blogger whom people will only read if your so-called thoughts are made available for free, whereas huge numbers of people actually pay good money to read what I have to say.

      In any case, when Asian-Americans say they want to be accepted by Hollywood and to see themselves positively reflected in US television and film, this is a somewhat disingenuous statement. What they really mean is that they want the dominant society, meaning white America, to recognize them and thereby validate them. But this is putting the cart before the horse. If they wish to make deeper inroads into mainstream American culture, they need to think more deeply about what mainstream American culture wants -- and not just what Asian-Americans want. Get it?

      Do you think the average American knew what the fuck Psy was singing about in "Gangnam Style"? What they say was a goofy Asian guy trying to be "cool" in a modern urban context that was highly Westernized, and not really being able to pull it off. In other words, it flattered the average white American, who thought to him or herself, "Oh, those wacky Asians, they want to be just like us but haven't quite made it yet." If that's your definition of being culturally embraced, then you really have no idea what you're talking about.

      I expect this comment to cause you an aneurism or two, but that's to be expected, too. Sucks to be so predicable, doesn't it?

      Delete
    8. Baeksu: "That is not what I said, nor is it what I think. Jeez, the level of discourse here is seriously wanting. Well, this is a blog: I guess you get what you pay for."

      LOL. I was just kidding.

      Delete
  32. Maybe if white women would look closely to Asian American men this very interesting debate would not matter...

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  33. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "If you are Korean, you have just seriously damaged the image of Korean men."

      I'm not Korean and the person I was addressing is not Korean, either. Please try harder to keep up, OK?

      "I bet your mom still regrets not aborting you back then. Can't you be just a bit more polite, you obnoxious brainless imbecile?"

      Thanks for the lesson in etiquette, Miss. Manners!

      "Hope you meet your Lorena Bobbit someday.If not, let me know and I will be willing to cut off your tiny dick myself, you filthy brain dead moron."

      Another fool outs themself for the hateful person they really are. Do you think anyone will take anything you say here seriously again?

      Delete
    2. 1. If you are not Korean, then it's okay. I kind of thought you could not possibly be.

      2. If you ever feel like writing something rude, please make a disclosure statement that you are not Korean.

      3. I really don't care if anybody takes me seriously or not. I actually hope they don't.

      Delete
  34. To blame only, or mainly, Asian men for misogyny and patriarchy is a very peculiar thing to do. What is this based on? A handful of personal experiences? Some generalized stories about male dominance in Asia?

    I don't doubt that sexism is truly a real problem. I find it dismaying that a lot of girls today preface their statements with, "I'm not a feminist, but..." Yes you are, and take pride in it because it's a good thing!

    But why do Asian men get collectively blamed, while other groups get off scot-free? For example, White American men vote overwhelmingly for the Republican Party, the party that aids and abets the likes of Todd "Legitimate Rape" Akin and Richard "God wants you to have rape babies" Mourdock. The GOP as a whole has been on a feverish crusade to roll back women's rights, especially their sexual freedoms in terms of abortion and birth control. All these causes are led by White men, and strongly supported by White men.

    Yet White men never have to pay the collective price for the actions of their worst! Even if the rotten apples actually may make up a majority of their demographic, White men still get the benefit of the doubt until they're proven to be incorrigibly backwards. And when they are, they take the blame INDIVIDUALLY, not collectively.

    But Asian men aren't afforded the same privilege. We are weighed down by the actions of our dynastic ancestors, or by someone's abusive uncle, or media perceptions about domineering (yet effeminate!) Asian men.

    In the end, I think all this usage of misogyny as a rationale for discriminating against Asian men is just a veneer that masks the REAL reason that some people want to disassociate themselves from us: We're just not that high on the social hierarchy, and some people are looking for any respectable excuse to get away from us.

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    Replies
    1. Making this about politics is changing the subject.

      Delete
    2. "Yet White men never have to pay the collective price for the actions of their worst! Even if the rotten apples actually may make up a majority of their demographic, White men still get the benefit of the doubt until they're proven to be incorrigibly backwards."

      If I'm not mistaken, CJL just called a majority of white American men "rotten." Thanks for that – and welcome to America!

      Delete
    3. The High Plains Knitter,

      I'm not making this political. I'm saying that if there are lots of White men who are expressing sexist beliefs through their political support, why are they not held collectively accountable for it, the way that Asian men are collectively held accountable for some of their members' sexist actions?

      Delete
    4. "I'm saying that if there are lots of White men who are expressing sexist beliefs through their political support, why are they not held collectively accountable for it...?"

      Evidently CJL has not heard of first-wave, second-wave or third-wave feminism.

      Gee, I wonder why that is?

      Delete
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    6. The High Plains Knitter,

      What you're saying is so unbelievably offensive that I don't even know where to begin.

      Firstly, you're using personal anecdotes to condemn an entire race of men. How long were you in Korea? How many people did you talk to? How well-integrated were you in Korean society? Moreover, how well do you know what kind of things that White and Black women put up with? If you're going to make such a sweeping accusation, you need much more substantial proof than some vague observations based solely on your personal experience.

      Secondly, you're not making any distinction between Korean-Korean men and Korean-American men. You're just flat out saying that misogyny is somehow a genetic trait that Asian men apparently can't get rid of, no matter what their upbringing is. It'd be like me saying that women shouldn't date White men because Russian men tend to be abusive alcoholics. See how unfair and illogical that is?

      Thirdly, your last couple of statements speaks volumes about your mindset. You treat Asian men as a collective entity, in that an Asian woman has the right to reject an entire group of men based on the actions of a few. However, when you talk about the White woman, you talk about a White MAN, in the singular. Again, as I pointed out, White men get the benefit of individual responsibility, whereas Asian men have to bear the brunt of collective responsibility.

      Tell me, what would you think of a White woman who rejects all White men because of her experiences in a sexist and rigidly conservative small town? Would you think that she has "respect" for herself as well?

      Delete
    7. High Plains Knitter, you're not allowed to make generalizations about groups of people, only CJL is. See how that works?

      Delete
    8. The High Plains Knitter: "Women operate from the heart. If they reject a certain group of men, there is a reason why."

      Women operate from the heart, meaning that their motivations are the reflections of the most noble human emotions?

      Conversely, if women are attracted to a certain group of men, there are sublime reasons that inform their noble preference? Then please explain, where is the virtue in politicians, athletes, rock stars and celebrities?

      I don't dismiss the experiences of your friends. But the vast majority of Asian American women are not operating on similar experiences. Their preferences are shaped and arise from a different place.

      Delete

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